Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

There is no way he could have not realized she was dead. It would have been very, very obvious from the extent of her injuries and her bleeding. You have to realize what happened. She was down on the floor, with a three-inch gaping hole in her throat, spraying aspirated blood all over the floor and on the wardrobe doors. And then, she sprayed more aspirated blood on the side of the wardrobe, next to where she was found, which proves she was still gasping for breath when she was dragged. And the aspirated blood was also found on her breasts, proving that she was still gasping when her bra was torn off. Within minutes, half the blood in her body had spilled out onto the floor. No way she was going to get up and call for help.

He was probably rattled by what he had just done, which explains why he threw the quilt over her and why he locked the door. As for the phones, who knows. He may have grabbed them on impulse, something easy to pocket, and then realized they could lead the cops right to his door, so he ditched them.

Consider a guy who is amped up on adrenalin because he has just carried out a murder that was completely unplanned, the result of having a young woman walk in on him when he is burglarizing her home. Some of his actions show rational self-interest, and others make no sense.

I am operating on the assumption that he was amped up on adrenaline, that many of his actions don't make sense, and also that he was in a state of denial and possibly wishful thinking. Presuming he's never killed anybody before, hearing Meredith gasping for breath or gurgling would be enough reason to convince himself she's alive and may survive. It may have been dark in her room, too.

I agree that your take on the phones is very likely.

 

[Draca]

I look at these two photos and always love to imagine exactly where the handholds were for Rudy such that he was able to pull himself up a) at all and b) without cutting himself, given the height and the off-centre aspect of the "pull up". Looks to me like he'd have had to do a finger pull up the human fly would be proud of...


http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?album_id=21&image_id=1398

When I look at this photo I wonder why the PMF gallery cropped it to make it appear that a larger portion of the ledge was covered in glass than was the actual case.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=131862433504903&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=176745915683221&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034&pid=489162&id=106344459390034

 

[Mary_H]

When I look at this photo I wonder why the PMF gallery cropped it to make it appear that a larger portion of the ledge was covered in glass than was the actual case.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=131862433504903&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

Good call, Draca. Have we also ruled out a descent from the roof, as opposed to a pull-up?

 

[TomCH]

For me the most logical thing to do would be to ring the door bell/knock on the door. If one of the upstairs tenants answers the door you say you were looking for one of the boys from downstairs. Then just excuse yourself and leave. No need to hurl rocks around if you just want to determine if someone is home.

Bingo, we have a winner!

First ring downstairs. If someone downstairs is home, no big deal, do some partying.

Then, ring upstairs. If someone is there, just say that you're looking for the guys downstairs, and wonder if they know when they'll be back.

But, to throw a rock through the window (and an 8lb rock at that)?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

When I look at this photo I wonder why the PMF gallery cropped it to make it appear that a larger portion of the ledge was covered in glass than was the actual case.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=131862433504903&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

Hendry says that simply smashing the window would have left shards of glass lodged around the edge of the window frame, but very few were there when police arrived. He thinks the glass on the ledge is there because the shards were picked out of the frame, to make it easier to reach through and unlatch the window.

 

[Mrs.Columbo]

Bingo, we have a winner!

First ring downstairs. If someone downstairs is home, no big deal, do some partying.

Then, ring upstairs. If someone is there, just say that you're looking for the guys downstairs, and wonder if they know when they'll be back.

But, to throw a rock through the window (and an 8lb rock at that)?

Wasn't it necessary first to climb and open the shutters before throwing the rock through the window-

or am I missing something??

 

[Draca]

Domenico Giacinto Profazio

Good call, Draca. Have we also ruled out a descent from the roof, as opposed to a pull-up?

The break in threads are hard for me to take serious. It doesn't even pass my brothers test, ie none of me my 3 brothers or myself would have had trouble climbing into that window as kids. We did far more than that. Jumping out of barn haylofts, climbing trees.... Most of this was done while much younger than Rudi Guede at the time. Not as tall or muscular. Not driven by economic needs. Not as experienced thowing rocks and breaking into second story windows. I don't think he would have had any problem getting in through the window - AT ALL.

I guess chubby Domenico Giacinto Profazio, Head of the Perugian Flying squad, led a more sheltered life as he quickly with little examination declared it impossible sending the whole investigation down the wrong path. Giving complex conspiracy lover Mignini an incentive to let his satanic imagination go wild.

It may have been impossible for Profazio to imagine getting in through the window in the shape he was in, and I couldn't do it any longer, but Rudi Guede was capable of it. There is little excuse for the lack of examination they gave the window entrance.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=176745915683221&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034&pid=489162&id=106344459390034


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=133627919995021&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

 

[Draca]

Ron Hendry - window

Hendry says that simply smashing the window would have left shards of glass lodged around the edge of the window frame, but very few were there when police arrived. He thinks the glass on the ledge is there because the shards were picked out of the frame, to make it easier to reach through and unlatch the window.

Ron Hendry makes sense to me. It shows large pieces of glass lying over a paint chip.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry------2.html

 

[TomCH]

The break in threads are hard for me to take serious. It doesn't even pass my brothers test, ie none of me my 3 brothers or myself would have had trouble climbing into that window as kids.

Yes, but can you throw an 8 lb. rock through a second story window?

 

[Draca]

Yes, but can you throw an 8 lb. rock through a second story window?

We threw hay bales onto a wagon for hours straight. If I wasn't able to as a gal, I'm sure my brothers could have thrown an 8 lbs rock, compared to the much heavier bales, without difficulty.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

But, to throw a rock through the window (and an 8lb rock at that)?

Yes, but can you throw an 8 lb. rock through a second story window?

I think we have a new winner in the "really, really bizarre things to express incredulity about" stakes.

The people who were incredulous about Amanda shuffling about on a bathmat were pretty special.

The people who were incredulous about the order in which Amanda called Meredith's mobile phones raised the bar very high.

But TomCH has taken it to a whole new level with his incredulity about the possibility that a grown man could throw an 8lb rock a few meters horizontally. I really think this is going to be hard to top.

 

[Diastole]

Presuming he's never killed anybody before, hearing Meredith gasping for breath or gurgling would be enough reason to convince himself she's alive and may survive.

I think you may be right, Mary. Meredith was almost certainly comatose by the time Guede decided to leave, but she may have continued to have some agonal breathing. His inexperience may have led him to misinterpret this sign of imminent death, and worry about the possibility of her reviving to some extent and summoning help. It seems to me that the most likely reason for Guede to have locked the door was to ensure that Meredith was confined to her bedroom until she expired.

 

[TomCH]

But TomCH has taken it to a whole new level with his incredulity about the possibility that a grown man could throw an 8lb rock a few meters horizontally. I really think this is going to be hard to top.

Accurately?

With enough force to break a double-glazed window?

Please, show me a video!

 

[Justinian2]

See how quickly and easily that gets slipped in?

No matter how many times ... how clearly and concisely ... or how recently I say that this isn't what I am asserting, someone always has to try and redirect the argument into the strawman of whether or not it "could" have been done.

If you want to engage in that particular dispute then you'll need to find someone else who actually disagrees with you.

My belief is that the window would be an unlikely choice in the first place. A very unlikely one, as in utterly ridiculous. But even if someone were to have chosen it there is still the problem of getting through it and leaving it in the state it was found. Yes, that too "could" have been done, but there would have been no reason to do it even if Guede was sufficiently athletic to pull it off. It just wouldn't have been needful. In fact it would have been harder, more dangerous, and a total waste of time.

As I said before, I was on the fence about the staging of the break-in for quite a while. Lacking any more definitive evidence than we had available it had become something of a he said/she said dispute between people who were willing to cut the investigators a little slack, and those who advocated the idea that everyone in Italy is involved in a conspiracy which is simultaneously diabolical and incompetent.

When the pictures of that window sill were posted here (Charlie Wilkes?) that all changed. It was evident to me that no casual burglar had gone through it. Attempts to offer plausible conjectures to the contrary have been increasingly amusing.




Other people have asked this very same question.

Very few of them have been among Knox's defenders.

I know what explanation occurs to me first. Remember, for such an exercise to be useful he would have to do it leaving the same lack of evidence and undisturbed glass on the sill. They wouldn't get to practice. I have a suspicion that the defense would really not rather have the results of that on record.

I would have carried the rock with me and then used it as a hammer once I was on the sill. When I was young with low body fat and on the wrestling team, I used to do spiderman stunts just for the fun of it! One stunt was to put a sneaker on either door sill on either side of the hall and 'walk' myself to the ceiling where, by pushing against the walls and door sills with my arms and legs, I could suspend myself with my back against the ceiling long enough to call my sister out and surprise her. She saw me and said a "HA, HA, funny" in an annoyed way.

The thing is, unless you have been in great shape, you don't know what's possible. The U-Tube videos of those two gymnists climbing over three story buildings show that this climb would be child play for some. Like I said, I would have carried the brick with me to bang the window open. Throw it? You crazy?

Since this is the last grip of the guilters, perhaps a test should be conducted. Let's knock off the last guilter stronghold once and for all...

 

[Katody Matrass]

wack a mole time again

As you know, there are no such photos in the public domain. Although of course there is the photo of the glass on the window ledge being undisturbed by anyone placing their hand on it to pull themselves up.

Yes, because no one placed a hand there.

The window below is off centre to the right of the windowsill as you look from the outside towards the cottage. The picture from the inside shows the glass on the left (i.e. same, dominant side one would have needed to pull up on most) completely undisturbed. Similarly no blood from someone cutting their wrist on the same glass if they pulled themselves up on the ridge of the cill. No disturbance from having pulled themselves up and having knelt on the glass while opening the window from the outside in.

So we agree - no one knelt there.

No blood on the jagged glass despite having to reach a long way up and inside to open the inside shutters.

Because there's no jagged glass on that "long way up" (in reality 65 cm from the sill).

I look at these two photos and always love to imagine exactly where the handholds were for Rudy such that he was able to pull himself up a) at all and b) without cutting himself, given the height and the off-centre aspect of the "pull up". Looks to me like he'd have had to do a finger pull up the human fly would be proud of...

http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?album_id=21&image_id=1454

http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?album_id=21&image_id=1398

You need then to look again. It's perfectly visible in the photo you posted. There's a piece of window frame to grab with both hands. BTW The window sill being some 1,5m above the grating makes it more of a pull in then a "pull up".

 

[SomeAlibi]

To all,

LondonJohn has given a reason why Rudi might have wanted to stage a break-in. ChrisC has offered the opinion that Rudi might have entered through the front door after breaking the window. Lunchtime over.

Which was my point. I appreciate that many Amanda supporters are not looking at the evidence as if they were to appeal it but this was really my point: arguing that the break-in is real is a deeply losing strategy with any jury given the choice to consider what is far more likely. Arguing Rudy as the simulator gives you a more credible ground for proceeding.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Accurately?

With enough force to break a double-glazed window?

Please, show me a video!

I'm afraid the reason for your incredulity is that you're poorly informed on that topic. Show us that double-glazing. A still photo would suffice. No need for moving pictures

 

[Withnail1969]

Which was my point. I appreciate that many Amanda supporters are not looking at the evidence as if they were to appeal it but this was really my point: arguing that the break-in is real is a deeply losing strategy with any jury given the choice to consider what is far more likely. Arguing Rudy as the simulator gives you a more credible ground for proceeding.

Another sweeping generalisation. I'm not sure if anyone is convinced by these statements.

 

[SomeAlibi]

Both those pictures taken of Filomena's window are taken in the lane of oncoming cars. Does anyone have pictures of Filomena's window from cars in the correct lane?

This doesn't make any sense. If you are coming into Perugia (the lane closest to the cottage), you look right out of the car window and spot Rudy. If you are leaving Perugia, you look left out of the car window and spot Rudy but with you are 9 feet further away. The concept of "correct" lane is meaningless.

 

[SomeAlibi]

I assume your commenting on the statement of mine that I highlighted. I stand by my opinion that you would be seen before breaking in. Why you might ask? I guess i should explain this in more detail.

Filomena's Window:
1. Throw rock from ground through window.
2. Wait and see if anyone is home. Your in a decent location should be able to hide if someone reacts to broken window.
3. You can then enter through window, or through front door if you have proper tools.
4. The window is a decent entry point. If someone reacts to the broken window you can quickly escape without ever being identified. If seen before breaking the window you could say you was there to visit the guys downstairs.

Balcony Door:
1. Toss rock up on balcony. That will make noise.
2. Climb up on balcony. Once again your making noise and still dont know if anyone is home. At this time you are exposed to not only people looking at the house but if anyone is home you can now be seen. Plus you still haven't broken into the home.
3. Toss rock through balcony door. Oops thats alot of glass, might even be double paned. Imagine the noise you just made and no where to hide. If someone is home then what? Jump off the balcony?
4. The balcony is the worst possible point of entry. If someone reacts to the broken glass the exit point is a jump over rails to the ground below. Plus your whole body is fully exposed to someone looking out the window/door and identifying you.

This is a specious argument on two counts. Firstly, burglars check people are not in the property (clearly without the possibility of being right 100% of the time) and then they effect the entry. This line of argument that Rudy would have chosen the overlooked and much more difficult climb just on the very small chance that his initial check-out was wrong loses on the balance of probabilities that in doing so he risked being seen and risked breaking his neck. Secondly, why do you think a rock is necessary to break in via the balcony? This whole idea of tossing a rock up onto the balcony is just daft. If you were going to use a rock, which is not what most burglars do, you only need a small one, not the large one used to apparently chuck through the window from a couple of metres away at Filomena's window. Most burglars will use something like the tap hammer that was confiscated off Rudy previously or they will stick a jacketed elbow through the glass. Again, in opening the shutters to the balcony door, a burglar would have had an opportunity to look into the property and see if anyone was in. But tossing a rock up onto the balcony? Doesn't make any sense.