Ed Rob Menard's FOTL Claims

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Blah, blah, blah.

That's an ordinary, reasonable interpretation of the statute & related case law but we all know that Rob specialises in extraordinary interpretations. What about 'conseeeeeeent'? Have you taken into account Canon Law, the Unam Sanctam Papal Bull & the Cestui Qui Vie Act of 1666? :jaw-dropp

None of that is relevant. The most important principle behind Menard's legal theories is Quia ego sic dico, which D'rok has never addressed.
 
Blah, blah, blah.

That's an ordinary, reasonable interpretation of the statute & related case law but we all know that Rob specialises in extraordinary interpretations. What about 'conseeeeeeent'? Have you taken into account Canon Law, the Unam Sanctam Papal Bull & the Cestui Qui Vie Act of 1666? :jaw-dropp
Damn. The weakness in my legal argument is revealed. Does this mean I fail my initiation test into the Red-robed Priesthood of Isis?

None of that is relevant. The most important principle behind Menard's legal theories is Quia ego sic dico, which D'rok has never addressed.
Ah, so Rob's an expert in Latatian. I am helpless before such expertise.
 
In sum, these two provisions [ss. 126 and 127 of the CC] are the default punishments for when a statue or court order is disobeyed and where no other punishment exists. They are limited in scope, and the defence of lawful excuse is also so limited.

Within that scope, the defence of "lawful excuse" has particular meaning. I'll address this specifically in my next post when I get some more time.
Time for part 2.

So, what exactly does "lawful excuse" mean within the context of ss. 126 and 127 of the Criminal Code?

As has already been shown, the defence of lawful excuse is limited by the scope of the provisions in question - namely, a situation where a statute or a court order has been disobeyed and where no punishment has been enacted for that disobedience. The phrase "lawful excuse" is not defined anywhere in the CC and, if it is somewhere in the regs, I can't find it; therefore, we have to look to case law. Luckily, the Supreme Court of Canada has addressed the issue.

In R. v. Holmes, the SCC considered the meaning of "lawful excuse" generally and within s. 309(1) specifically (as it was then). It was a close decision with a strong dissent, but the majority said this about the defence of "lawful excuse":

R. v. Holmes said:
On this point, I would refer to the words of Laskin J. (as he then was) in Brownridge v. The Queen, 1972 CanLII 17 (S.C.C.), [1972] S.C.R. 926, at p. 950, in a concurring judgment on this point, where he said on the subject of the construction of the words "without reasonable excuse" in what is now s. 238(5) of the Criminal Code:

"I regard the phrase "without reasonable excuse" as adding a defence or a bar to successful prosecution which would not be available without those words, but not as encompassing defences or bars that would exist without them."

The emphasized words in the above passage were relied upon in the Ontario Court of Appeal in construing the words "without lawful justification or excuse", in s. 408 of the Criminal Code, in R. v. Santeramo (1976), 32 C.C.C. (2d) 35, at p. 44, per Brooke J.A.

The Chief Justice has adopted the view that the phrase has not been so robbed of its content but that it encompasses general common law excuses, such as duress and authorization by law, which he considers must continue to be established by the accused on a balance of probabilities. I cannot, with the utmost deference, share that view. I would adopt the words of Laskin J. in Brownridge, supra. The words "without lawful excuse" do not encompass excuses or justifications that would exist if those words were omitted from the section, and thus require proof by the accused. Manifestly, if the words were omitted from the Code, general common law excuses, such as duress or authorization by law, would continue to be available to the accused. The conclusion that these general common law excuses are not encompassed within the phrase "without lawful excuse", entails the further conclusion that these excuses need not be proved on a balance of probabilities since they are not affected by the words "the proof of which lies upon him". Consequently, these excuses are, and have always been, with respect to this offence, available to an accused on exactly the same basis as they are in any other criminal offence: as long as the accused can raise a reasonable doubt, he is entitled to an acquittal. [emphasis added]

R. v. Holmes, [1988] 1 S.C.R. 914

The reasoning is quite clear. The phrase "lawful excuse" does not encompass the spectrum of common law defences, because those apply regardless of any express language saying that they apply; therefore, the phrase "lawful excuse" must be adding some defence not normally available.

Unfortunately, this doesn't provide much guidance for what defence the phrase actually adds to ss. 126 and 127. Citing R. v. Holmes, some lower courts have recognized this dilemma:

R v. Sergeant Beregeron said:
The opinion in the case law is unanimous in saying that it is impossible to give a general definition of lawful excuse. If the law that creates the offence does not assign it a precise meaning, as is the case in prosecutions under section 87 of the Criminal Code, its meaning must be inferred from the purpose of the charge but also having regard to the context and circumstances of the case. It is clear, however, that determining whether an excuse is lawful is not a matter left to the accused to decide. Whether there is a lawful excuse will be determined based on an objective rather than a subjective standard.[emphasis added]

R. v. Sergeant J.J.G.M.L. Bergeron
, 2006 CM 41

In some cases, the objective standard has been some other statutory context - i.e., a provision in a statute somewhere that could be relied on as a lawful excuse in the particular factual circumstances at issue. For example:

R. v. Curtis said:
The defence of lawful excuse set out in s. 215(2) does not encompass common-law excuses such as duress: see R. v. Holmes 1988 CanLII 84 (S.C.C.), (1988), 41 C.C.C. (3d) 497 at 522 (S.C.C.). This being so, the lawful-excuse defence in s. 215(2) may well most commonly arise (in those rare cases where it arises at all) from a statutory context. For example, an official fixed with a duty under s. 215(1) might best be able to find a lawful excuse for not doing that duty in the laws and regulations affecting his performance of his job.[emphasis added]

R. v. Curtis, 1998 CanLII 1999 (ON C.A.)

None of this helps Menard. For one thing, he claims that statutes don't apply to him, so he cannot find some lawful excuse in a statute somewhere so long as he wants to remain consistent with his claims. (Not like lack of consistency has ever troubled him, but still). For another, there are no statutes which give Menard any lawful excuses to do the idiotic FOTL things he claims he can do, despite his tortured misinterpretations of various traffic acts.

Let's imagine a fact scenario. Freeman Menard is stopped by the Ontario police as he is "traveling" (i.e., driving) on Ontario roads in his "private conveyance" (i.e., car). Menard has no license, registration or insurance. Cop goes to write him some tickets and tow his car. Menard says, "wait! I don't have to obey the Highway Traffic Act because I have a lawful excuse by claim of right for not obeying! Look at s. 126 of your Criminal Code!"

First, as has already been shown, s. 126 would not be applicable to this scenario, because the Highway Traffic Act clearly has punishment provisions for disobedience - the tickets and the towing are the obvious manifestations of these provisions.

Second, as has been shown above, even if s. 126 does apply (it doesn't) Menard does not have a lawful excuse because a) common law defences are not encompassed by the "lawful excuse" defence, and b) there are no statutory sources on which Menard can rely to show that he doesn't need to obey the Highway Traffic Act.

He can always go try his "defences" and "interpretations" in traffic court after receiving his tickets. Good bloody luck.



In short, Menard is selling pure nonsense.
 
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I suppose the next step should be pointing out exactly what are and aren't common law defences to criminal offences in Canada. Not sure if I have to stomach for it. Need I say more than noting that the whacky FOTL version of common law most certainly does not apply?
 
So the defence of 'lawful excuse' is most likely to be available when there is a contradiction / inconsistency between 2 (or more) pieces of legislation?
 
So the defence of 'lawful excuse' is most likely to be available when there is a contradiction / inconsistency between 2 (or more) pieces of legislation?
Not necessarily. My reading is that it would be available if a piece of legislation gave you some authority to do something that was otherwise illegal. Something like this:

Act A:

s. 101(1) Anyone who, without lawful excuse, passes wind in the theatre is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction by 50 lashes in the public square and a fine of not more than $500.

Act B:

s. 36(3) Officers of the court may pass wind in theatres.


Facts: Mr. Solicitor lets'er rip whilst viewing Harry Potter. Copper issues a ticket. Mr. Solicitor raises lawful excuse defence based on s. 36(3) of Act B. Ticket quashed.

ETA: I don't think it would be possible to raise the lawful excuse defence unless it was specifically allowed for in the wording of the offence.
 
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I should mention that I'm happy to be corrected on any of this by any practicing Canadian (or other) lawyers who can spot any errors.
 
Nicely done D'rok, we can await Robs response over on Ickes, he has promised to rebut your first post after finishing helping his father with some errands.

I suspect he will be back when his father has changed his diaper for him, I suspect he filled the last one after reading your post.
 
Nicely done D'rok, we can await Robs response over on Ickes, he has promised to rebut your first post after finishing helping his father with some errands.
I suspect he will be back when his father has changed his diaper for him, I suspect he filled the last one after reading your post.

+ 1

D'rok has clearly got to grips with the relevant material in a manner which is plainly beyond poor Rob. This bit of legal research demolishes the habitual FMOTL whine that the 'law society' draft law in such a manner that it's incomprehensible to non lawyers. The fact is you have to concentrate & read the stuff. Alas freemen generally want the 'answers' to be in 10 minute gobbits on Youtube. They are intellectually idle & are unwilling to do the hard work.
 
If he was feeling tempted to come over here and argue his case, D'roks post will have finally made up his mind for him.

I managed to find a photo of Rob reading D'roks post
0.jpg
 
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Nicely done D'rok, we can await Robs response over on Ickes, he has promised to rebut your first post after finishing helping his father with some errands.

I suspect he will be back when his father has changed his diaper for him, I suspect he filled the last one after reading your post.
If he bothers to respond, it will no doubt be his usual blend of obvious distortions and specious logic.

Heck, if I'm lucky, I might even get the prestigious "yer a Nazi rat" rebuttal.
 
Sigh. He's responded and it's even worse than expected.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1059513911&postcount=48

This cross-forum "debate" is exceedingly tedious. If Menard can't be bothered to sign in here where he is a member, then there is no point in continuing this.

That said, his response is poor, even for him. It boils down to these three "arguments":

1. Those rulings in the Supreme Court of Canada and lower courts don't apply to me because they don't have authority over me.
2. Look at all the other instances of "lawful excuse" in the Criminal Code! It isn't limited like you say it is!
3. New Zealand does something or other regarding claims of right.

Argument number one is pure idiocy and can be dismissed outright. The criminal law operates whether Menard consents to it or not.

Argument number two is an example of his extraordinarily poor reading comprehension and non-existent reasoning abilities all rolled into one. Bravo. I shouldn't have to explain this again, but apparently it is necessary...so here goes:

1. The defence of lawful excuse as provided for in s. 126 of the Criminal Code of Canada is only available when s. 126 applies.
2. The defence of lawful excuse as provided for in s. 127 of the Criminal Code of Canada is only available when s. 127 applies.

Pro-tip: Specific defences for specific offences do not apply to the whole damn Act. Those other instances of the lawful excuse defence are just that. They apply to the offences to which they refer not to offences to which they do not refer.

It boggles my mind that this needs to be explained.

Ss. 126 and 127 apply as has been explained in the posts above. In the narrow circumstances when those sections apply, a defence of lawful excuse is available. I explained that defence in a subsequent post. I see no need to repeat myself again. In no uncertain terms, those sections cannot be used as support for the proposition that FOTL jackasses can disobey statutes and court orders at will.

The third argument is completely irrelevant. Canada is not New Zealand. Even if Menard is completely correct about the law in New Zealand (and I have no doubt that he is completely wrong), New Zealand law is not an authoritative source of law for Canada. Duh. Courts in Canada will sometimes discuss common law (REAL common law - not the FOTL delusion) as it is developed in Australia and New Zealand, but precedents in those countries are not binding in Canada. Menard cannot rely on a tortured interpretation of Kiwi law to further his agenda in Canada.

It is no surprise that Menard can't even keep up with the discussion. I dislike doing monologues, but I'm considering doing one on the rule of law in Canada, as total ignorance of that concept is another common source of FOTL idiocy. Maybe tomorrow.
 
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Alas freemen generally want the 'answers' to be in 10 minute gobbits on Youtube. They are intellectually idle & are unwilling to do the hard work.

Hence the reason Menard will always have willing victims who will ignore D'roks response because it takes a modicome of reason and logic to understand it.

I have a feeling Rob may now start to take a more philosophical ,religious angle from now on (he usually does)
 
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You couldnt make this up!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rob has replied to D'roks post on Ickes with...........
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1059515159#post1059515159



D'rok , I think everyone here and in freeman land can see who the time waster is. :D

Oh and can you now see why I decided to make his life a misery, what a tool.
There was never any doubt about the what the quality of his response was going to be. I put some effort into my posts not for his benefit, but for the benefit of any lurkers who may be harbouring secret hopes that Menard's brand of FOTLism offers them some magic bullet to avoid things that none of us like very much - traffic tickets, taxes, etc.

Of course, the ultimate rebuttal to any criticisms would be for Menard to actually have the courage of his convictions and do the things he claims to be able to do. Imagine the revenue he could generate if he successfully mounted an FOTL defence in open court! Alas, we know this will never happen, because, like all con artists, he is only looking to profit off of the ignorance of the gullible and the vulnerable. He will never put himself in harm's way. That alone should give pause to anyone considering taking him seriously. Unfortunately, there will always be enough folks who are either too desperate or too dim (or both) to open their eyes. Menard and those like him will always have a customer base.
 
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You couldnt make this up!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rob has replied to D'roks post on Ickes with...........
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1059515159#post1059515159



D'rok , I think everyone here and in freeman land can see who the time waster is. :D

Oh and can you now see why I decided to make his life a misery, what a tool.



Is this the "question" that he insists we must answer?

In a common law jurisdiction such as Canada where equality is paramount and mandatory and the very foundation of the rule of law, how can one man govern another without the consent of the other, and not abandon the rule of law?


Trivially easy to answer. So trivial that someone like D'Rok, with actual legal training, probably doesn't even stop to think that people might not know what the "rule of law" actually means.


The rule of law is a legal maxim that states no person is immune to law.

The phrase has been used since the 17th century, but the concept can be traced to ancient Greece. Aristotle put it this way: "law should govern". Rule of law stands in contrast to the idea that the sovereign is above the law (rex lex), a feature of Roman Law and other legal systems.


So, two things here: the Judge can govern you and still maintain the "rule of law", so long as those same rules apply to the Judge. That is, he can't drive without insurance either.

And you'll note the bit about "Rule of law stands in contrast to the idea that the sovereign is above the law", which pretty much puts paid to their notion of being "sovereigns" who are immune to statute law. That, in fact, would be the exact opposite of the Rule of Law.



Oh, and:

Upholding the rule of law can sometimes require the punishment of those who commit offenses that are justifiable under natural law but not statutory law.
 
Imagine the revenue he could generate if he successfully mounted an FOTL defence in open court! Alas, we know this will never happen, because, like all con artists, he is only looking to profit off of the ignorance of the gullible and the vulnerable. He will never put himself in harm's way.
The sad fact is that the answer Menard has given on Icke's to your (excellent) posts on here will satisfy those morons that believe everything he says. They will chalk it up as a win for Menard.
He's nothing but an out and out con man.
 
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It didnt take long, hes now back onto the "CONSENT" and "CHILDREN" nonsense.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=148648&page=9
What rules are you talking about? The ones made by others without my consent? Or the ones to which I agreed to and am thus bound?

Do you hold that some people are empowered to make rules and others must follow those rules, like they are children or incapable of deciding for themselves how to live their own lives?

that is of course after he has picked apart D'roks posts using reason and logic
 
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