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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Justinian2 said:
1.) I can imagine lots of things. It doesn't make them true.
It does if you've experienced a similar situation.
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I didn't mean in the sense of "I can imagine invisible pink unicorns". I can imagine Amanda being innocent, and I can imagine her being guilty, I can imagine her confession being due to false memories, and I can imagine it being due to her telling deliberate untruths. My ability to imagine it isn't at issue.

I take it that you don't mean to imply that stuff having happened to you is any indication that it happened to Amanda?

Justinian2 said:
2.) I don't think D-Day is a very helpful point of comparison, analogy, or whatever, for what Amanda went through.
Amanda was going through a situation where she had to fight for her life, her reputation and the reputation of her family.
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Yes, but D-Day? Don't you think this is being a little bit melodramatic? Why not compare what is being done to her to the holocaust?

Justinian2 said:
3.) As for the rest, we don't know do we? Perhaps she slept just fine. I can sleep pretty much regardless of external factors. Other people can't sleep in response to stress.
This isn't mere stress. This is super stress. This isn't an exam. This is super life altering stress coupled with rage, fear and extreme frustration.
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OK. I suspect she wasn't sleeping well. I don't know that she wasn't, but it seems like a reasonable enough assumption. I haven't based any of my thoughts on the case on the quality of her sleep, so I'm happy to go with you on this.

Justinian2 said:
4.) In any case, I'm sure many people who are suspected of murder, guilty or not, feel stressed,
Not stress, super stress.
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Most people suspect of murder just feel exam stress? Are we talking about the stress before the 5th that was stopping her sleeping? Most people suspected of murder, or rather who believe they are suspected of murder, wouldn't feel what Amanda felt? I guess a psychopath, or professional criminal might not, but any newbie would, surely?

Justinian2 said:
5.) none of this is specific to innocent people who get induced false memories.
Just the police report is enough to jumble the old memory banks. In my own minor skirmish with the law and a similar skirmish of a relative a couple years later, I learned how easy it is for the police to FUBAR events with their reports.
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Falsely believing you were present for a murder is a little bit more than this. If you want to claim she's muddled about the order of events, or some such, I'm right with you.

Justinian2 said:
What I learned is that the police reports have MASSIVE errors.
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[Pedantic]...some police reports...[/pedantic]

Justinian2 said:
I also learned that our own recall and the recall of others is easily influenced and altered.
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People also tell lies and convenient untruths for a whole variety of reasons. The Norfolk 4 for example would be an example where, for perfectly understandable reasons, people confessed to a murder knowing that they didn't do it.

Justinian2 said:
Even a person's peers and family won't let him believe the truth of his own innocence. After all, AUTHORITY is always right.
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What people's families and peers believe is irrelevant.
 
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Kestrel said:
Amanda's interrogation occurred over several nights. When she showed up on the night of the 5th, it's probable that she was already in a sleep deprived state. She attended school that day after being interrogated much of the previous night. And I doubt she was sleeping well. Would you find it easy to sleep in the days after a friend had been murdered?
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Or after you were responsible for that murder.
 
Katody Matrass said:
LOL, never saw that one before. But it's posted recently. Is there some kind of "shadow discussion" with what we talk about here :)?

<snip>
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Maybe a shadow of a shadow?

Sometime I suspect I might need to add PMF to my reading list. I have a feeling that some of the apparently random comments offered in this thread might be less obscure, and occasionally even verge on comprehensible.

Other times I feel like I don't need to bother, because there is enough reporting here on their conversations to make the effort redundant.
 
Kestrel said:
Amanda's confusion was still apparent early the next afternoon when she wrote her 8 page note. At that time she had gone well over 24 hours with little if any sleep. Once she got some proper rest, she was no longer confused, but the damage had been done.
BTW - One of the Norfolk 4 internalized his confession. He still believed he had committed the crime at the trial.
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No this is not true, even according to AK, as her testimony HERE shows.

The same feelings [of 'confusion' or frustration] returned on Dec 17 again when she was asked about her false accusation of PL. And her lawyer had to try and explain it away in court via AK's testimony.

This had the unfortunate (for the defence) effect of undermining the whole 'confusion & coercion on the night of the 5/6th' * angle. As did the later lies/contradictions on the stand.

* As is also has for the waterboarding, 'internalized false confession', Norfolk 4, Birmingham 6 etc 'arguments' being advanced here.
But that's of little import to the case itself as the defence are restricted somewhat [by their duty to the client] from putting forward completely ridiculous and irrelevant arguments.
 
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shuttlt said:
I didn't mean in the sense of "I can imagine invisible pink unicorns". I can imagine Amanda being innocent, and I can imagine her being guilty, I can imagine her confession being due to false memories, and I can imagine it being due to her telling deliberate untruths. My ability to imagine it isn't at issue.

I take it that you don't mean to imply that stuff having happened to you is any indication that it happened to Amanda?.
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I'm asking you to imagine the stress, the headaches, the agitation, the rage at being falsely accused, the fear that your life has been destroyed, the frustration at people that do not believe you, your reality is beginning to break, and your love of society is in ruin.

Yes, but D-Day? Don't you think this is being a little bit melodramatic? Why not compare what is being done to her to the holocaust?
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Yes, it is D-Day for you and your family.

OK. I suspect she wasn't sleeping well. I don't know that she wasn't, but it seems like a reasonable enough assumption. I haven't based any of my thoughts on the case on the quality of her sleep, so I'm happy to go with you on this.
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Good.

Most people suspect of murder just feel exam stress? Are we talking about the stress before the 5th that was stopping her sleeping? Most people suspected of murder, or rather who believe they are suspected of murder, wouldn't feel what Amanda felt? I guess a psychopath, or professional criminal might not, but any newbie would, surely?
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Agreed.

Falsely believing you were present for a murder is a little bit more than this. If you want to claim she's muddled about the order of events, or some such, I'm right with you.
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Partly good. Have you ever had a dream where you thought you killed someone? Boy, it is real. When you wake up, you have to think about it for awhile. Then relief comes when you know you've never lived in a house with a dirt floor in the basement, so that your dream of digging a hole in the basement to bury the body must have been false. Then you think "Thank God", roll over, and go back to sleep.


People also tell lies and convenient untruths for a whole variety of reasons. The Norfolk 4 for example would be an example where, for perfectly understandable reasons, people confessed to a murder knowing that they didn't do it.
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Good.

What people's families and peers believe is irrelevant.
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Soldiers die to protect their peers. It is hardly irrelevant what they think.

Furthermore, I would suspect that ALL police reports are considerably FUBAR of real events. I see no reason to believe otherwise.
 
Machiavelli said:
The court already has the whole transcript, and from the transcript it is obvious she accuses Patrick one moment after having seen the message, and the accusation takes shape in a similar dinamic to what Anna Donnino describes: sudden, a shock. In the dec. 17 interrogation she says the accusation takes place after she sees flashes of memories of of Patrick's face in her cottage, a sudden shocking memory. They ask repeatedly who was with her that night, then she admits she was with Patrick in the seme moment as she sees the message.

While in court, instead she accuses Patrick only some time after having discussed the sms text with the police. In her court testimony, the police talk a lot about the text before she says she was with Patrick.
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Machiavelli, you persist that Amanda claimed these visions of Patrick in the cottage immediately after seeing the SMS. You have cited nothing to back up these claims. You insinuate that Mignini references the interrogation transcripts, but in his statements he says nothing of these visions when referencing the interrogation transcripts. Furthermore, I've argued that the one quote from Amanda that he reads in court is not representative of Amanda's full explanation of how she came to implicate Rudy. To prove this I've cited additional statements of hers from the interrogation that were not read in court as well as Amanda's own testimony that the interpreter was not writing down everything she said. The bottom line, however, is that you have yet to cite anywhere that Amanda claims to see Patrick in the cottage immediately after seeing the SMS.

Machiavelli said:
The episode of Donnino speaking of the broken leg is obviously located prior to the sms text discussion.
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Obviously? Not according to Amanda's testimony. It doesn't even make sense within the context of the SMS. You seem to be pulling evidence to back your claims out of thin air.
 
shuttlt said:
<snip>

Yes, but D-Day? Don't you think this is being a little bit melodramatic? Why not compare what is being done to her to the holocaust?

<snip>
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Please don't introduce ideas like this.

AK's status/case was recently upgraded from 'Dreyfus' to 'Mandela' [and comparison to Bukharin & co was hinted at]

Is there such a thing as 'hyperbole' inflation ?

ETA The ' ' were put around hyperbole because its not clear that this exaggeration is 'not intended to be taken literally'
 
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capealadin said:
It is complex, and the Italians themselves have had issues with it , in the past. However, I stand by my explanation, and if you feel it is presented in the absolute, I invite you to give me one example that differs from what I have stated. The Prosecutor will not appeal a sentence, which is already the MAXIMUM .
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Which is what I said, from the very beginning on this issue. BTW, what you indicate on this now, compared to what you indicated before is not the same.
 
RoseMontague said:
And as Frank points out, this same scenario seems to be playing again in the case of Sabrina Misseri who is accused of killing her cousin Sarah Scazzi. The medium is the message in terms of justice.
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It's like one of those stories where the author is writing the story as it is happening; the author's story is becoming reality in real time.

The newspapers need certain things to happen for the story to be interesting, so they write as if they happened and pretty soon, the police 'find' the witness that provides the rest of the story.

My theory: Giuliano Mignini was into BDSM. He made the story fit his fantasy. Again, I reiterate that I am a 'loose canon' here and in no way influenced by the Knox family to come up with these colorfully absurd ideas. I have no information to prove this, it just seems like a possibility.
 
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Justinian2 said:
I'm asking you to imagine the stress, the headaches, the agitation, the rage at being falsely accused, the fear that your life has been destroyed, the frustration at people that do not believe you, your reality is beginning to break, and your love of society is in ruin.
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I don't have a problem imagining Amanda having a dreadful time regardless of whether she is innocent or guilty. I hadn't thought to imagine anything about my/her "love of society" but, sure I can do that.

Justinian2 said:
Yes, it is D-Day for you and your family.
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I'm not sure that comparing interrogations to historic battles is helpful. Did you go through D-Day? I haven't been accused of murder, or been through D-Day so it doesn't help me, if anything it puts what Amanda is going through into perspective, awful though I am certain it is.

Justinian2 said:
Partly good. Have you ever had a dream where you thought you killed someone? Boy, it is real. When you wake up, you have to think about it for awhile. Then relief comes when you know you've never lived in a house with a dirt floor in the basement, so that your dream of digging a hole in the basement to bury the body must have been false. Then you think "Thank God", roll over, and go back to sleep.
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I don't think the stuff I've read about false memories connected it with confusion on waking from sleep. The one is presumably far more common than the other? In any case, it's not that I can't imagine her getting confused, it's that I can also imagine her knowing that the confession was false when she signed it, like the Norfolk 4.

Justinian2 said:
Soldiers die to protect their peers. It is hardly irrelevant what they think.
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Of course it's relevant to the soldiers. How is it being relevant to them relevant to the case?

Justinian2 said:
Furthermore, I would suspect that ALL police reports are considerably FUBAR of real events. I see no reason to believe otherwise.
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As in they contain the small inaccuracies that are a regrettable, but inevitable part of life?
 
Justinian2 said:
he newspapers need certain things to happen for the story to be interesting, so they write as if they happened and pretty soon, the police 'find' the witness that provides the rest of the story.
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It could also be that cases that are not interesting quickly drop out of the headlines and we are just left with the interesting ones imprinted on our memories.
 
Katody Matrass said:
<snip>
It was the same when the pubblico ministero came, because he asked me: "Excuse me, I don't understand. Did you hear the sound of a scream?" No. "But how could you not have heard the scream?". I don't know, maybe my
ears were covered. I kept on and on saying I don't know, maybe, imagining...[

Didn't "the scream" show up only in the 5:45 statement, after Mignini arrived?
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Hi all,
With all of the brilliant "colpevolvisti" minds that debate here and elsewhere,
I am wondering how come none has answered this simple question that Katody Matrass posted?

Nor my own:
Did anyone report to the police that they had heard "the scream"
before the interrogation of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollicito on Nov. 5th+6th, '07?

Since that appears to NOT be the case,
I, just a surfer with a curious mind therefore wonder:
Did Prosecutor Mignini, he with a seemingly vivid mind,
simply imagine that Meredith Kercher must have screamed the night she was brutally stabbed to her death?

And if so, was Mignini being untruthful by asking Amanda Knox this during her questioning at the questura?
Was he simply baiting Amanda by asking her "how could you not have heard the scream" as part of his professional routine that, you know,
would hopefully "trick the suspect" and get her to say something incriminating?

Gosh, I wonder...
RWVBWL
 
quadraginta said:
Scene One. (Couple driving down street at night.)

"OMG!!! Look there!

No! No! Waayyy over there, through those trees.

Stop the car!

I think there might be a ... a ... a person on that balcony!!!"

:eek: :eek: :eek: :jaw-dropp

"You hide in the trunk. I'll call the emergency number."

------------------------------------------

Scene Two.

"Tell me, dear, isn't that someone hanging from a bedroom window on the side of that house over there?"

"Phffft. Happens all the time. I wouldn't give it a second thought."
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LOL, you got it wrong :)
Scene one:
What's that guy doing on that balcony?
after some 30m :
He just pried the shutters open!
after another 30m:
and now he's kicking in the glass door!
another 30m:
Let's park behind those bare trees to get a better view. He's really nervy to do it in full view and in the light of that streetlight.​
Scene two:
It's November but this large tree is still beautiful and green, isn't it?​


quadraginta, you've been caught red handed cherry picking the photos to suit your position, how do you feel about it :)?.
 
RWVBWL said:
Hi all,
With all of the brilliant "colpevolvisti" minds that debate here and elsewhere,
I am wondering how come none has answered this simple question that Katody Matrass posted?

Nor my own:
Did anyone report to the police that they had heard "the scream"
before the interrogation of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollicito on Nov. 5th+6th, '07?

Since that appears to NOT be the case,
I, just a surfer with a curious mind therefore wonder:
Did Prosecutor Mignini, he with a seemingly vivid mind,
simply imagine that Meredith Kercher must have screamed the night she was brutally stabbed to her death?

And if so, was Mignini being untruthful by asking Amanda Knox this during her questioning at the questura?
Was he simply baiting Amanda by asking her "how could you not have heard the scream" as part of his professional routine that, you know,
would hopefully "trick the suspect" and get her to say something incriminating?

Gosh, I wonder...
RWVBWL
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Hi, RWVBWL. No one reported any scream before the interrogation. I think "the scream" was planted by Mignini into the 5:45 statement. Next day it was all over the media. That's how Nara "heard" it.
 
RWVBWL,

If you told me you thought you might have been present in a small apartment during a murder, but didn't give any indication of having heard the murder taking place, I would have asked about screams as well.
 
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