Hard vs Soft Martial Arts

[thaiboxerken]

BJJ is pretty good and you can do it without injury.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

BJJ is pretty good and you can do it without injury.

In Tasmania I think I was the only person in my training group who had been training for over two years and had not yet required knee surgery.

I freely admit that this sample may be unrepresentative.

When I went back to training in Brisbane my first attempt at returning to training resulted in a groin injury that had me walking funny for six months when a huge bastard stacked me up in guard, and my second resulted in a sore neck for a month after a ****head slammed a can opener on me in the first few seconds of a "light wrestle to warm up".

Those last two injuries should never have happened, obviously. But the fact is that although you can do it without injury even experienced and risk-averse persons like myself accept a risk of injury every time we step on to the mat.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I've been training since '95 and have yet to be injured. It really depends on who you train with and how. If someone is really rough and you're worried about injury, don't train with that guy.

Yes, there is always risk. But in any physical activity there is.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I was thinking of later on taking some martial arts as a complement. What would you recommend if I mainly want to train agility and coordination?

Western Boxing. End of story. If that's all you're in it for. Depending on who trains you, your agility and coordination training will be pretty damned outstanding. If you want to be a well-rounded fighter, you're going to have to learn grappling. But if that's not all that important to you, and you still wish to have martial arts training that will give you slightly-better-than-chance odds if you ever do have to use it, you can't really go wrong with Western Boxing. (or Muay Thai, or Kyokushin if you absolutely HAVE to wear a gi to feel special.)

Never underestimate the confrontation-ending power of a properly thrown gut shot. Most people don't know how to take one. I sure as hell don't.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Fads as well. We have seen the "kung fu" craze, the "ninja" craze, and now the "MMA" craze. Can't wait to see what's next.

I'm not sure that I'd call MMA a "craze" any more than I'd call boxing or kickboxing matches a "craze." MMA has the advantage of burning away ineffective ******** that doesn't work on anyone ever, let alone in the ring.

Plus, it helps to show what I did not want to admit to myself when I was an Aikidoka:

Physical fitness and conditioning have one HELL of a lot to do with how well you can defend yourself, despite what fat-**** hakama-wearing liberal arts majors tell you.

 

[Garrette]

I'm not sure that I'd call MMA a "craze" any more than I'd call boxing or kickboxing matches a "craze." MMA has the advantage of burning away ineffective ******** that doesn't work on anyone ever, let alone in the ring.

Plus, it helps to show what I did not want to admit to myself when I was an Aikidoka:

Physical fitness and conditioning have one HELL of a lot to do with how well you can defend yourself, despite what fat-**** hakama-wearing liberal arts majors tell you.

Agreed. And MMA shows me what I've admitted to my kids who sometimes call me "beastly" when we horse around (both my boys are taller than I am; one is thicker and stronger, too): I wouldn't last 30 seconds against the least of the MMA fighters.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Looks like shi-ho-nage isn't all that effective against banhammers.

Lulz

 

[MattusMaximus]

By the way, since there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here:

I'm going to start a strength training regimen next year in order to build up strength, tighten up ligaments, etc. I was thinking of later on taking some martial arts as a complement. What would you recommend if I mainly want to train agility and coordination?

My first question is have you ever had any martial arts training before?

If not, I would start with something simple, perhaps basic boxing or kickboxing, or even some karate. It really depends upon what you're looking for. As others have said, some kickboxing & TKD will work on your flexibility quite a lot, but to develop raw stamina I'd go for judo, BJJ, or some kind of wrestling. Pretty much any kind of decent martial arts training will start you off with agility & coordination, because without these everything else is kind of worthless.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Physical fitness and conditioning have one HELL of a lot to do with how well you can defend yourself

This. In fact, I think this is perhaps an even larger factor than the specific martial art that one practices, assuming of course that one isn't relying on throwing chi-balls for self defense.

 

[MattusMaximus]

One thing I have found in training in stand up jujitsu is that for many of the the techniques the opponent must commit whether its a punch or any other attack the more the opponent commits the better the technique works. You can use the opponents momentum against him and/or off balance him. Works against an unskilled or unsuspecting opponent. One of the reasons for the introduction of atemi waza to distract your opponent from what you are attempting. There are other techniques where just changing the angle of the jointlock along with your position in relation to the opponent will pull him off balance and or gain leverage advantage allowing you to finish the move. This concept is found in stand up and ne waza.

What you describe here is a pretty accurate description of the early forms of aikido, when it was called aiki-budo or aiki-jujitsu during the pre-WWII days. I have a particular liking for that more martial, higher impact old style aikido, before it turned into the more fluffy style of "Moonbeam" Ueshiba in his later years. Sadly, separating out the fluff from the good training is hard to do in aikido, and finding a dojo that doesn't go into the fluff is even harder. I freely admit that many of the criticisms directed here at the vast majority of aikido training are well founded.

This is one reason why I like to emphasize more realistic atemi-waza in my aikido training, partly because of my striking background but also because it formed the basis of much of the older-style aikido back in the old days. If you look at the older, pre-WWII photos of Ueshiba training in what they called aiki-jujitsu, it was much more brutal than the stuff most people think of when they talk about aikido today. When I teach class I like to really drive this point home to the students, as it kind of makes me feel like I'm keeping the real martial tradition alive.

I'm reminded of how one of my original aikido teachers put it years ago when he openly criticized at a seminar the fluffiness too many in aikido practice: "It doesn't make any damn sense to say that you're going to spare the life of your opponent unless you are in a position to take his life to begin with!"

 

[Delvo]

Wikipedia's definition of what makes an art hard or soft seems to differ from the way it's been used in this thread. It says it's not about how the art approaches fighting in general, but just how it deals with incoming strikes; a hard defense would be punching the arm that's trying to punch you or kicking the leg that's trying to kick you.

By that definition, an art (such as boxing) that emphasizes hitting the head and torso as hard and often as you can is still not a hard martial art if its main defenses against incoming strikes are evasion and absorption (such as letting the strike land on your arm so it doesn't land on your face). But I don't gather that any of you would call such an art soft...

 

[JoeyDonuts]

This video seems oddly appropriate.

 

[keale]

BJJ is pretty good and you can do it without injury.

My now chronic dislocating shoulder disagrees with you

 

[JoeyDonuts]

My now chronic dislocating shoulder disagrees with you

Let me guess. Over-eager juiced-up newbie who just learned the Kimura try to take your arm home with him?

 

[keale]

I've been training since '95 and have yet to be injured. It really depends on who you train with and how. If someone is really rough and you're worried about injury, don't train with that guy.

Yes, there is always risk. But in any physical activity there is.

The main reason I stopped BJJ and went to Judo is because I kept getting injured.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

The main reason I stopped BJJ and went to Judo is because I kept getting injured.

That's a little like moving from a Yugo to a VW Rabbit because you don't like driving ****** cars.

Hope you enjoyed your knees while you had them.

 

[keale]

Let me guess. Over-eager juiced-up newbie who just learned the Kimura try to take your arm home with him?

Pretty close but yeah it popped it out the first time and that weakened it. I didnt give it time to heal and kept training for a few weeks and thought I was OK till I was grappling with a former wrestler and he caught me with an arm drag and yanked it out good. Had to go to the hospital to pop it back. Never was the same since.

 

[keale]

That's a little like moving from a Yugo to a VW Rabbit because you don't like driving ****** cars.

Hope you enjoyed your knees while you had them.

Heres the thing in Judo the higher belts are nice(er) to lower belts i.e. there not going to rip your arm off because its bad manners. I learned a lot more a lot faster that way rather than just getting tapped out seven ways to sunday and not figuring out why.

I also like the stand up game better. The other thing is getting to see different perspectives in ne waza or grappling.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

If you compete or even get into serious randori and get caught with a drop seoi-nage, it might pop on you again. I'd suggest developing awareness for when you get caught and using ukemi to mitigate the pressure on your arm.

I'd suggest that, but if you get "caught" you probably won't have time to "do" much of anything except admire one or two ceiling tiles on your way down.

I do think that Judo CAN be safer than BJJ, but that can't really even be an absolute statement since it depends on what technique, what person, what surface you're training on, your flexibility, the opponent's form. Though Judo doesn't place as heavy an emphasis on ground-based locks as BJJ, there are still a few of them when you work ne-waza.

Just be aware of your limitations, talk to whoever you're working with, and don't try to be some kind of superhero muscling your way out of locks. You do see people pull it off now and again, but I believe the most typical outcome involves the hospital.

Good luck to ya...I'm a bit jealous. Had to quit all training for school/schedule concerns. I miss the hell out of it, and wish I could get back to it.

 

[Roboramma]

When it comes to joint locks, my philosophy is simply tap soon and tap often. Work your escapes but when your opponent has it don't wait for it to hurt, tap.
I learned that trying to power out of an armbar early in my BJJ training and waiting three months for my elbow to get back to normal.
Since then, I haven't had any BJJ injuries except for a very surprising broken toe. (I stubbed it very hard against my teacher's ass.)

I think a lot of it comes down to choosing your training partners. Some guys just go crazy. That's fine if that's what you're doing, but generally it's not necessary and personally I'd rather not get injured. I can hang with the big, skilled guys when they go 100%, but I'd rather not do that every day.

A lot of it also comes down to learning to chill out and just protect yourself, even when the other guy is going crazy. You'll still reverse him, and eventually you may get a dominant position that you can control him in even when he is going nuts. But too often when the other guy escalates, there's a need to escalate right back and someone ends up getting hurt.

But I may just be lucky in that my flexibility makes me a little harder to hurt.