Hard vs Soft Martial Arts

[thaiboxerken]

the woo is strong here

 

[TubbaBlubba]

what's meth

Methyl Amphetamine.

 

[thaiboxerken]

He didn't know that judo had chokes......

 

[MattusMaximus]

He didn't know that judo had chokes......

Yeah, I noticed that, too.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I'll keep that in mind if I ever tangle with anyone I know is trained in judo. I've never engaged anyone with a choke who was trying to do the same thing, typically I use it on strikers.

If you run into someone on the street, how are you supposed to know if they've had judo training? Or are you referring to people with whom you engage in friendly matches at the dojo?

 

[thaiboxerken]

He probably considers "one-step" choreography on an uke as "sparring." I noticed how he like Seagal, who I think any blue-belt in Gracie Jujitsu could probably tap out.

 

[Garrette]

Then you must have caught them off guard. You can't really employ some moves on an actively resisting target if they're stronger than you, you have to lay it on them before they realize what you're doing.

Sometimes, yes, they were caught off guard. Other times they were intentionally distracted. You will note that I have taken pains to indicate that what we did would not work in an actual fight.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Wouldn't catching someone off their guard actually be a valid fighting technique? Makes sense to me.

 

[Garrette]

Wouldn't catching someone off their guard actually be a valid fighting technique? Makes sense to me.

Yes, I suppose so. I still wouldn't advocate the techniques developed for hospital security as valid when fighting someone on the street or in the ring, though of course the principles they demonstrate may be part of such a technique.

 

[Phrost]

Yes, I suppose so. I still wouldn't advocate the techniques developed for hospital security as valid when fighting someone on the street or in the ring, though of course the principles they demonstrate may be part of such a technique.

I'd imagine a lot of those are filtered through a sieve labeled "liability concerns". An old training partner of mine used to work as a guard at a juvenile facility and he was always complaining that they were "pretty much limited to using a Kimura and a few wrist locks".

Of course, a lot of those techniques work because the subjects are "semi-compliant", meaning, they're not necessarily trying to outright murder you in some cases. There are degrees to which people are violent, and a lot of people you might have to restrain will pretty much stop putting up a fight once they encounter someone with an obvious superiority in both training and a willingness to physically resolve the conflict.

Aikido works great on drunks and people you outweigh by 50 lbs. But the part that works is almost always found in Judo, SAMBO, etc, because it's all derived from Jujitsu.

 

[Roboramma]

I'd imagine a lot of those are filtered through a sieve labeled "liability concerns". An old training partner of mine used to work as a guard at a juvenile facility and he was always complaining that they were "pretty much limited to using a Kimura and a few wrist locks".

This reminds me of a story a BJJ teacher of mine told about a fight he got in once. This isn't a "my teacher kicked the ass of ten guys" story it's somewhat embarrassing for him and we were all shocked at his inability to end the fight in the way he wanted to.

Basically, a guy was harassing him, he tried to avoid conflict, but the guy threw a punch, he pulled him into his guard. He didn't want to hurt the guy so decided he needed to choke him out.

Now, this teacher of mine is a multiple time brazilian national champ at black belt level in his weight class (and he's not small). He recently won the pan ams. He basically plays with us in sparing and seems like he's half asleep but submits us in any way he wants to whenever he wants to.

He couldn't triangle the guy, no matter how he tried. Finally he ended up having to armbar him. The guy left the party after that, but came back half an hour later with a gun. He proceeded to taunt him with the gun in his face and finger on the trigger for half an hour*. Finally he left.

I don't know that I have a point here, but that story stayed with me.

* "half an hour" may be an exaggeration. I obviously don't know the exact length of time. I imagine it felt much longer than it actually was.

 

[Baylor]

the woo is strong here

Not surprising

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6648824#post6648824

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Looks like shi-ho-nage isn't all that effective against banhammers.

 

[keale]

Then you must have caught them off guard. You can't really employ some moves on an actively resisting target if they're stronger than you, you have to lay it on them before they realize what you're doing.

One thing I have found in training in stand up jujitsu is that for many of the the techniques the opponent must commit whether its a punch or any other attack the more the opponent commits the better the technique works. You can use the opponents momentum against him and/or off balance him. Works against an unskilled or unsuspecting opponent. One of the reasons for the introduction of atemi waza to distract your opponent from what you are attempting. There are other techniques where just changing the angle of the jointlock along with your position in relation to the opponent will pull him off balance and or gain leverage advantage allowing you to finish the move. This concept is found in stand up and ne waza.

I see in this thread there are those that seem to think that one style like stand up or ground is better than another but I dont see it that way they are just different. Its just having realistic goals with realistic training to achieve those goals and being pragmatic. Also when you train both you see that they fit together quite nicely and one flows right into the other.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

By the way, since there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here:

I'm going to start a strength training regimen next year in order to build up strength, tighten up ligaments, etc. I was thinking of later on taking some martial arts as a complement. What would you recommend if I mainly want to train agility and coordination?

 

[Baylor]

By the way, since there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here:

I'm going to start a strength training regimen next year in order to build up strength, tighten up ligaments, etc. I was thinking of later on taking some martial arts as a complement. What would you recommend if I mainly want to train agility and coordination?

Put me down for Judo. It's a world sport, and from what I can tell, pretty popular in Northern Europe. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu would work just as well for your goals, but can be pricey and the schools are more abundent in the Americas. If you can find a SAMBO school, I also recommend that. There doesn't seem to be any out here, and I live in the martial arts capital of the USA. Or you can try a striking martial art. Boxing, of course, being my pick. Muay Thai (though Dutch-style kickboxing seems to be more popular in Europe) is extremely popular out here. It'd be great for the strength and dexterity you're after.

eta-I will also note that training an effective martial art will do far more to alleviate depression than any anti-depressant medication will.

 

[Garrette]

I'd imagine a lot of those are filtered through a sieve labeled "liability concerns". An old training partner of mine used to work as a guard at a juvenile facility and he was always complaining that they were "pretty much limited to using a Kimura and a few wrist locks".

Of course, a lot of those techniques work because the subjects are "semi-compliant", meaning, they're not necessarily trying to outright murder you in some cases. There are degrees to which people are violent, and a lot of people you might have to restrain will pretty much stop putting up a fight once they encounter someone with an obvious superiority in both training and a willingness to physically resolve the conflict.

Aikido works great on drunks and people you outweigh by 50 lbs. But the part that works is almost always found in Judo, SAMBO, etc, because it's all derived from Jujitsu.

Absolutely agree. You said better what I was trying to say. The only place we were concerned about someone outright trying to murder us was at a state psychiatric hospital with what amounted to a criminal ward full of people found incompetent to stand trial. More than one actual murderer there, one in particular straight from a movie set--huge, sulking, and scary. He's a perfect example of the security force being better at talking someone down. My instructions (and personal practice) were that whenever we went onto that ward, regardless of the reason or the length of time we had, one was required to at least say hello to this man (and two or three others) and just chit chat. It helped on more than one occasion when the psychiatrists called for security help and the officer was able to call on a friendly relationship to talk the gentleman down.

 

[Garrette]

By the way, since there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here:

I'm going to start a strength training regimen next year in order to build up strength, tighten up ligaments, etc. I was thinking of later on taking some martial arts as a complement. What would you recommend if I mainly want to train agility and coordination?

For just that, plus flexibility, I'd go Tae Kwon Do, but I'm not the most knowledgeable guy here.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

By the way, since there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here:

I'm going to start a strength training regimen next year in order to build up strength, tighten up ligaments, etc. I was thinking of later on taking some martial arts as a complement. What would you recommend if I mainly want to train agility and coordination?

Tennis, squash, something like that.

Seriously, and I speak as someone who has done them, full-contact martial arts are for people with psychological problems, people like police officers who regularly have people try to beat them up, and people who actively enjoy injuries that will debilitate them for the rest of their life.

If you have a psychological need to be able to **** someone up - maybe you were bullied as a child like I was - then do BJJ or Judo. Six months to a year of training and you'll be able to murder anyone in your weight division who hasn't trained, in the literal sense of being able to kill them if you are so inclined.

If you have that and the desire to work on agility and coordination maybe do muay thai or boxing. You'll get more injuries, cracked teeth, brain damage and so on but you'll also get what you want.

Bear in mind that I have exactly the same feelings about rugby, to pick one example, and lots of people play rugby. I think it's a poor decision in terms of your long-term health and happiness to do so, but follow your star.

The bottom line is that there are two kinds of martial arts, and this has been proven experimentally. There are full-contact styles like BJJ, judo, muay thai, sambo, kyokushinkai and so on that work but **** you up. There are fake styles like aikido, TKD, crappy karate and so on that are dancing at best and BDSM games at worst, whose practitioners get humiliatingly smashed when they run into the full-contact crowd.

Don't do a fake martial art, ever, unless you just treat it as a dance class. Don't do a real martial art unless you accept the likelihood of getting your anterior cruciate ligament ***ed up sooner or later.

 

[Bikewer]

Tae Kwon Do generally does have a very involved conditioning regimen. Lots of calisthenics, lots of pushups, lots of jumping kicks. They conditioning may well be it's most attractive aspect, as most schools stress competition technique almost to the exclusion of anything practical, and the competition techniques are far from practical.

However, any decent style will provide the same. We always recommend that the prospective student does some research, and decides just what they want out of martial-arts training.
Effective self-defense?
Training and conditioning?
The challenge of learning a physical "art" with rewarded advancement?
Competition?

There are literally hundreds of styles around....More each week it seems. As well, there's always someone willing to put together the latest synthesized art to become the next Bruce Lee....
Fads as well. We have seen the "kung fu" craze, the "ninja" craze, and now the "MMA" craze. Can't wait to see what's next.