Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[christianahannah]

Exactly: calling for her to apologize presumes that she's guilty. On the other hand, if she's innocent, then it's the police who should apologize. If her guilt/innocence is still being determined, as it is, then there's a possibility someone who was coerced into a confession is being held accountable for that. As I said, that's something I think should be questioned.


Some more than others. But yes, there's certainly a 'reality TV' element to a lot of these very high-profile trials. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I don't see it that way katy_did. I guess I see what Amanda did yesterday as expressing empathy for Patrick's situation and that she was sorry it was because of her interrogation, this apart from whether her confession was coerced or not.

I agree with your opinion as to high-profile trials and reality television. I don't really think anyone involved comes away benefiting from the experience (with the exception of media).

 

[treehorn]

After reading 20 pages of Massei I could tell the old buffer wasn't exactly a full shilling. I couldn't give a damn about his experience.

I'll bet money that's where you stopped, too.

PS If the '1969' is a reference to your own DOB, it ill behooves you to call Massei an "old buffer."

 

[Withnail1969]

I think you're right - my mistake. However, I think there's still a strong point to be made that it's highly unlikely that the knife would still smell strongly of bleach some 12-18 hours later - given that no bleach was actually found on the knife and no bleach solution was open in the apartment (e.g. in a bowl or in the sink). IIRC the smell can most likely be attributed to the disinfectant used by Sollecito's cleaner to clean the floor. I don't believe that the kitchen knife was ever bleached, or that it "stood out" as unusually clean. And the idea that a few of Meredith's skin cells got somehow "caught" in a scratch on the blade - and managed to cling in there despite the obvious fact that the knife would have had to at least have been washed clean with soap and plenty of water if it had been used in the murder, given the condition in which it was found - sounds unlikely in the extreme.

If skin cells regularly got caught on knives despite washing, wouldn't there be an awful lot of food poisoning? Wouldn't there be adverts on TV advising you to boil your knives or something?

 

[Kaosium]

Hours of interrogations? Is there another kind...interrogations that last only five minutes perhaps? Sounds like hyperbole as a plea to sympathy. There was nothing special about this, she was questioned just as any suspect in a murder enquiry is questioned.

So like a mafioso kingpin then? Or some tough street hood? Is it not possible such methods might result in unexpected results when the subject is a college girl from a different land and language?

The police dictated nothing...Amanda admitted this on the stand. Her story was all hers.

I've been trying to get to the bottom of this one. As far as I can remember a judge, I believe, asked her who first mentioned Patrick. The rebuttal has been that was a result of being asked who sent her the SMS. So that would be literally true, but otherwise misleading as it displays the police were most interested in Patrick to even ask about the SMS--when they must have known he sent it.

Where's the 'coercion', you've yet to lay that out? It seems to me any act of questioning someone is coercion in your book. At least, if one questions Amanda it's coercion. I mean, treating her in any other way then as a goddess is abuse right? I mean, we all know if you take her out of the universe it will implode since it all revolves around her. In fact, Kevin will be along in a moment with some astronomy literature to prove just that

There were 12 police officers eligible for the calunnia suit, though only eight chose to pursue it to this point. Having been aggressively interrogated the night before and then taken into the back room late at night, and then quite literally producing a false 'confession' from her, I'd suspect coercion had to be involved. After all, if she was just trying to shift the blame elsewhere, why on earth would she place herself at the murder scene and 'accuse' a man she would know had an alibi, being as she'd communicated with him that night and knew he was closing his store?

As soon as Amanda incriminated herself they halted the interview and made her a suspect, even Amanda and her lawyers have never contested that fact. If you're going to claim otherwise then you need to provide some proof. They also only were required to provide her legal counsel if they wished to continue questing her. But that's redundant as the police cannot question suspects, only a judge can and they were all at home tucked up in bed, just like all the lawyers were.

Why, that sounds like a wonderful way to avoid having to provide a lawyer on request, doesn't it? What possible reason could the police have had to set up an interrogation with all those officers at that late hour if they couldn't question her as a 'suspect?' Do any other 'witnesses' that have already been exhaustively questioned get that sort of attention from police in Italy?

Do you believe them when they say they didn't tape this interrogation?

 

[LondonJohn]

I'll bet money that's where you stopped, too.

PS If the '1969' is a reference to your own DOB, it ill behooves you to call Massei an "old buffer."

You're obviously not familiar with the film, then?

PS I believe Massei was 58 years old at the time of the trial. Meaning he was born in 1951. Eighteen years before 1969.

 

[Solange305]

Why, that sounds like a wonderful way to avoid having to provide a lawyer on request, doesn't it? What possible reason could the police have had to set up an interrogation with all those officers at that late hour if they couldn't question her as a 'suspect?' Do any other 'witnesses' that have already been exhaustively questioned get that sort of attention from police in Italy?

I could be mistaken, but the late hour was chosen partly because of Sollecito's schedule, and also because they were eating dinner and Sollecito asked for time to finish. Also, I am just going by memory here, so I may be wrong, but I think they called them in after realizing they had gone out to eat instead of going to Meredith's memorial (meaning, they meant to call them in earlier, but wanted to give them time to go to the memorial, then when they realized they hadnt gone anyway, they said screw it, call them in now). I guess my point is it might not have been planned as a strategy to call them in late, but I may be wrong, Im sure someone will promptly correct me if i am

 

[Solange305]

Interesting.

A new formulation of the Germ Theory. Forget pathogens. "Skin cells" are the cause of "food poisoning."

!

So that's why my mom always told me never to put my fingers in my mouth! Eww

 

[LondonJohn]

I could be mistaken, but the late hour was chosen partly because of Sollecito's schedule, and also because they were eating dinner and Sollecito asked for time to finish. Also, I am just going by memory here, so I may be wrong, but I think they called them in after realizing they had gone out to eat instead of going to Meredith's memorial (meaning, they meant to call them in earlier, but wanted to give them time to go to the memorial, then when they realized they hadnt gone anyway, they said screw it, call them in now). I guess my point is it might not have been planned as a strategy to call them in late, but I may be wrong, Im sure someone will promptly correct me if i am

Just out of interest, did Laura or Filomena (or their boyfriends) go to the vigil for Meredith?

(I'll give you a clue: No.)

 

[platonov]

I don't see it that way katy_did. I guess I see what Amanda did yesterday as expressing empathy for Patrick's situation and that she was sorry it was because of her interrogation, this apart from whether her confession was coerced or not.

I agree with your opinion as to high-profile trials and reality television. I don't really think anyone involved comes away benefiting from the experience (with the exception of media).

Unfortunately, Patrick apparently doesn't see it that way and has expressed an opinion publicly on the matter.

And as for the jury, whose opinions will no doubt be primarily influenced by the subsequent evidence examined - they are more likely to have heard [if not heeded] his assessment than yours or mine.

 

[Solange305]

Just out of interest, did Laura or Filomena (or their boyfriends) go to the vigil for Meredith?

(I'll give you a clue: No.)

I know they didn't, I was just stating why the cops set up the interview late, and like I said, I could be wrong. I was just stating what I thought the circumstances were behind the scheduling, not trying to insinuate anything.

 

[Withnail1969]

So that's why my mom always told me never to put my fingers in my mouth! Eww

I would imagine rotting animal cells of any kind would be a food-poisoning problem, if they genuinely were stuck on kitchen knives all the time. Obviously they aren't, except in Stefanoni's universe.

 

[platonov]

Just out of interest, did Laura or Filomena (or their boyfriends) go to the vigil for Meredith?

(I'll give you a clue: No.)

While this is an incidental and irrelevant* issue of the type I just referred to
- do you have a source for that ?

C Dempsey perhaps

* And ignores the salient point, which was the late interview time.

 

[treehorn]

You're obviously not familiar with the film, then?

PS I believe Massei was 58 years old at the time of the trial. Meaning he was born in 1951. Eighteen years before 1969.

I can do the math, thank you - and my assertion stands.

As for the movie, I'd never heard of it. (Before my time, I suppose you could say.)

Has a pretty good rating on IMDb...

If I can find it (in America), it might become MY pick for a Sunday movie night.

 

[christianahannah]

Unfortunately, Patrick apparently doesn't see it that way and has expressed an opinion publicly on the matter.

I realize that, in fact, I included a link in a prior post to Patrick's opinion on Amanda's statement.

And as for the jury, whose opinions will no doubt be primarily influenced by the subsequent evidence examined - they are more likely to have heard [if not heeded] his assessment than yours or mine.

Well hopefully they won't base a verdict on an article presented in the media rather than what is presented in court.

 

[LondonJohn]

I would imagine rotting animal cells of any kind would be a food-poisoning problem, if they genuinely were stuck on kitchen knives all the time. Obviously they aren't, except in Stefanoni's universe.

Well, if small numbers of cells were left on a blade, they could certainly provide a breeding ground for bacteria, but to nowhere near a high enough level to be harmful to humans the next time the knife were used.

What's far more hard to understand, though, is how Meredith's skin cells somehow managed to become "wedged" into this alleged tiny scratch in the blade - given that they must have been deposited there either during the attack (which for the kitchen knife - if it was involved at all - was a simple slicing action) or during some subsequent cleaning/scouring action.

 

[Kaosium]

Yes, I agree. The question of whether Amanda should apologize to Patrick hinges on whether we hold the makers of coerced confessions responsible for those confessions, IMO. The demand that she should have apologized bothers me because it suggests that she (and by implication, anyone else who makes a coerced confession which implicates another person) is at least partly responsible for those coerced statements. To me, that seems a dangerous road to go down. And as you say, it also tends take the focus from any manipulative and dishonest police tactics which led to the confession in the first place.

One thing curious I heard is the amount Patrick received from the slander suit is more or less the same that Amanda received as a result of the suit against the tabloid that printed portions of her diary. That also brings to mind that besides that suit he filed another against the Perugian police for false imprisonment or whatever it was and yet another in a European court (ECHR in Strasbourg?) for even more damages.

Will Amanda and Raffaele get an opportunity to sue as many times for as much as Patrick for the even more egregious violations against them when they are cleared?

 

[LondonJohn]

I can do the math, thank you - and my assertion stands.

As for the movie, I'd never heard of it. (Before my time, I suppose you could say.)

Has a pretty good rating on IMDb...

If I can find it (in America), it might become MY pick for a Sunday movie night.

It was made in 1987, but is set in 1969.

What time on 1st November 2007 do you think Meredith Kercher most likely died?

 

[Withnail1969]

Well, if small numbers of cells were left on a blade, they could certainly provide a breeding ground for bacteria, but to nowhere near a high enough level to be harmful to humans the next time the knife were used.

I would dispute that. What happens when you use your knife to cut up some cold meat or chicken and transfer the festering bacteria to a whole new habitat? Then a day later you serve your party guests some chicken or cold cuts of beef?

I think in that situation you might need the services of London's best defence lawyer. His name escapes me for the moment.

 

[LondonJohn]

One thing curious I heard is the amount Patrick received from the slander suit is more or less the same that Amanda received as a result of the suit against the tabloid that printed portions of her diary. That also brings to mind that besides that suit he filed another against the Perugian police for false imprisonment or whatever it was and yet another in a European court (ECHR in Strasbourg?) for even more damages.

Will Amanda and Raffaele get an opportunity to sue as many times for as much as Patrick for the even more egregious violations against them when they are cleared?

I think that any investigative journalists who are hanging around Perugia waiting for the next appeal hearing could do worse than look further into the strange case of Patrick Lumumba. Why was his bar closed by the police for months after his arrest and release? Why did he make extremely serious allegations (in directly quoted statements) against the police in a newspaper article, then subsequently disown the allegations? What is the current nature of his relationship with the police and prosecutors' office in Perugia? The answers to these questions might be very interesting.

 

[treehorn]

Well, if small numbers of cells were left on a blade, they could certainly provide a breeding ground for bacteria, but to nowhere near a high enough level to be harmful to humans the next time the knife were used.

John,

I've come to suspect that you are one of the few "innocentisti" here that has SOME notion of the distinction between legal and factual guilt, and the distinction between the civil (balance of probabilities) and criminal (reasonable doubt) standards/ burdens (in the common law system).

So I've got a little 'test' for you: If the civil standard were applied, would you still be arguing that Knox and Sollecito are not factually guilty?