Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris C]

Oh I never said I wasn't confused.


Now my understanding is that she came in and saw all this kinda got the sense that something was wrong and went back to RS's house for a while BEFORE police were called. Is this true or not?


Also I had originally begun this thread saying "Why would she draw the police to the house" thinking that she had called the police only to be told that the police showed up on their own to return two of Meredith's cell phones. I think they were postal police, and it was THEN that the police were called


Is this correct or not?

Im not 100 percent positive, but I think the actual reason that the police where called, was because of the broken window in Filomena's room.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

carry on

halides1

I note you didn't respond on the general irrelevancy, refutation or repetition 'issues'.
Can we take those as accepted/irrefutable.

But lets meet halfway on this luminol issue which you seem to think this is good ground for you.

Now you know I don't share your taste for repetition but if you...
First - post links or page numbers to all the separate 'occasions' or 'exchanges' where you or others 'bring up' luminol (ignore the one liners)
&
Then also post a couple of links to the best argument as you see it...
I will happily respond with posts where the best arguments were dealt with or deal with them myself.

Take you time - say over the next day or three. Now once you post I will first check to see if you have omitted* any. If you have - no dice. Lets see how much repetition is involved here !

*I'm a fair debater, I will give a generous 25% leeway on the first list - Oh yea, post it in vertical table form.

.

platonov,

When I don't respond, your default assumption should be that I think your argument is wrong, but I don't want to take the time to discuss my reasons. When I do respond to you it is only because I feel the need to emphasize or to correct something really important. Your suggestion above sounds as if it would take some time, and I don't see how it would advance my understanding of the case, or anyone else's understanding, for that matter. Thanks but no thanks.

 

[christianahannah]

Greetings Treehorn!
"Neutral"
Now that is an interesting word.

Reminds me of somethin'.

Too bad you weren't in Perugia for Rudy Guede's lawyer, Walter Biscotti's 50th birthday party at the "Red Zone".

From what I have read, you could have probably listened to some good music, got drunk and even hung out with some of the "neutral" locals,
such as Police Officer Napoleoni, head of the homicide squad, Officer Zugarani, and even Prosecutor Mignini's briefcase man too.
Heck, even Judge Micheli, you know, the guy that sent Rudy Guede to prison for his participation in the bloody murder of Meredith Kercher,
was there tapping his foot as Rudy's lawyer, Biscotti played lead guitar on a cover of the song "Smoke on the Water".

What does Rudy Guede have now?
Oh yes, just 16 years for a murder!?!

Oppps!
I forgot something.
I think that I recall that this same judge also convicted poor lil' Rudy of sexual assault.
Too bad Rudy couldn't keep his hands of Meredith Kercher, maybe she would still be alive today.
Friggin scumbag...

Have a good one, Treehorn
RWVBWL

Well it is not uncommon for adversaries (politicians for example) or those who inhabit the workplace to be friendly towards one another and have social connections apart from work. You spend quite a bit of time in your occupation, it is only natural some of your friends would be made there.

I don't believe social connections are what got Rudy his 16 year sentence. It was a result of the type of trial he chose among other factors.

 

[Withnail1969]

Again a speculation posted as a declarative statement.

Actually it was an oxymoron.

 

[truethat]

Well, it seems unlikely, but you do realise you have responded in similarly dogmatic style delivered from on high with nothing to support it either, don't you?

The fact that someone else does the same thing doesn't negate the reality of the point.

 

[platonov]

platonov,

When I don't respond, your default assumption should be that I think your argument is wrong, but I don't want to take the time to discuss my reasons. When I do respond to you it is only because I feel the need to emphasize or to correct something really important. Your suggestion above sounds as if it would take some time, and I don't see how it would advance my understanding of the case, or anyone else's understanding, for that matter. Thanks but no thanks.

halides1

OK ... Challenge made - Challenge declined.

But a point of my own, partly/primarily the reason I brought this challenge up, or developed it in response to your post.

I don't see how endlessly repeating the same hackneyed, oft refuted, sometime ill informed or dishonest and often irrelevant arguments advance your understanding of the case, or anyone else's understanding.

Well they do advance understanding in one narrow sense - they highlight the weakness and irrationality of the Foaker argument.

 

[RWVBWL]

The first isn't even fluff - its speculation (or making **** up if you prefer ) and doesn't deal with the earlier panic issue.
You also appear, like Mary H, to have confused testimony with hearsay.

On the second you have misread me - I have asked and got an answer.
If you are an Iggy Pop fan you will like it.

Hi Platonov,
I thought that was what we mostly do here, speculate,
using our own life experience as we discuss what we think happened that night Merdith Kercher lost her life...

For not a single person that debates here, or elsewhere,
was there as Meredith Kercher had a knife stabbed into her throat,
with her life's blood helping to convict 1 person!

Speculation:
Some speculate that the break-in was staged, some do not.
Some speculate that Rudy Guede, after sexually assaulting Mereth Kercher, might have left a reminder of his "luv". Some do not.
Some speculate that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were so easily manipulated by the police that they caved in and gave a false confession. Some do not.
Etc.

I do not need to go on, you should get my drift by now, Platonov!

You have also asked me about some Iggy Pop dude, heard of him, that's all...
Priest, Maiden, Ozzy, Hendrix is what I'm about.
Along with other stuff, punk, rocknroll, oldies,...

Platonov, I sometimes think that you are too edumacated for me to sometimes understand!
I am just askin' a simple question!
Just tell me how many hours your doctor said it was that they thought it would generally take for the stomach to start and then stop digesting its last meal. OK?

Thanks,
RWVBWL

 

[Chris_Halkides]

here is my challenge

halides1

OK ... Challenge made - Challenge declined.

But a point of my own, partly/primarily the reason I brought this challenge up, or developed it in response to your post.

I don't see how endlessly repeating the same hackneyed, oft refuted, sometime ill informed or dishonest and often irrelevant arguments advance your understanding of the case, or anyone else's understanding.

platonov,

Are you implying that one of my arguments about luminol or DNA is ill informed or dishonest? If so, please indicate which one and indicate your reasons, and that might well be worth discussing. If you cannot, then may I suggest you stop killing so many electrons?

 

[Solange305]

So on the one hand, Meredith is really concerned about all the lowlifes Amanda is dragging back to the cottage all the time, and on the other she never feels a need to lock her door.

Withnail, I am going by people who know, not you. Filomena, her roommate, stated that Meredith did not lock her door. Even Amanda eventually admitted that she did not frequently lock her door, that she had only meant to say that she had at one time or another seen it locked.

But no, let's not go by the word of the people who actually lived there. Let's just believe your speculation, which is much more reliable!

 

[Solange305]

She could easily have destroyed Filomena's legal career.

Just the fact of Raffaele Sollecito being arrested was enough to get his outstandingly successful Carabinerie sister Vanessa fired.

Didnt she get fired for something she said or did? I didnt think she was fired just because she had the same last name as him, did she?

 

[Solange305]

Fair enough.

Though wasn't there a few people that talked about how the other 2 girls said something along the lines that Knox and Meredith where having problems because Amanda was messy in the bathroom.
If that was true and you had been confronted by your roommates about being a slob, would you flush their toilet, which is in their bathroom and not yours.

Possibly, I don't know. I still think it's strange, but your explanation is viable as well, so I'm willing to let it go.

Also I believe Filomena's bathroom is a 2 part bathroom. I dont think she would have to blow dry her hair and look at the turd. I've not seen the exact layout of the room that connects to it

Yes, I think I was mistaken about that, unless someone says otherwise, Im willing to admit I was mistaken about her spending quality time with the turd. .

.................

 

[Solange305]

can you imagine what people would say about her if it were discovered that she'd spent weeks or even months posting on a message board about a notorious murder?

I'm pretty sure they'd think that was "strange" to say the least, and no doubt some would say it points to her guilt.

How would it be related to Meredith's murder? I get what you are trying to say, that in retrospect things that would look innocent enough are looked through a lens of suspicion, and you may be right. I am trying to look at each action from an unbiased point of view, but at the same time I look at the big picture, which seems to be like there is a pattern of somewhat suspicious behavior. But again, I understand the point you are trying to make, although I think the "posting on a board" analogy isn't the best example...

 

[Tricky]

Quite a few off-topic, snarky, personalizing and bickering posts were moved to AAH. There may be further action on these. If you don't want to be "acted on", then cut out the above types of posts.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

 

[Dan O.]

Oh I never said I wasn't confused.


Now my understanding is that she came in and saw all this kinda got the sense that something was wrong and went back to RS's house for a while BEFORE police were called. Is this true or not?

Also I had originally begun this thread saying "Why would she draw the police to the house" thinking that she had called the police only to be told that the police showed up on their own to return two of Meredith's cell phones. I think they were postal police, and it was THEN that the police were called

Is this correct or not?

On the first return that morning, Amanda saw the front door was open, she saw a few drops of blood in the small bathroom after taking a shower and finally, the unflushed toilet in the large bathroom where she went to dry her hair.

Anybody that frequents the movies would know that the logical thing to do in this situation would be to run around the house (preferably in scanty underwear and a t-shirt) opening every door until you run into the killer and become the next victim. What Amanda did however was to leave the cottage.

On the return to Raffaele's place (or after she got there), Amanda called one of Meredith's phones, then called and talks to Filomena then calls Meredith's other phone and repeats the call to the first phone. Now Amanda knows that both of Meredith's phones are not taking calls. The Italian phone is immediately redirecting to viocemail and the UK phone is giving an automated message.

Amanda and Raffaele returned to the cottage, receiving a callback from Filomena on the way where Amanda gets instructions to check the house.

Back at the cottage, they discover the mess in Filomena's room and the broken window. They then discover that Meredith's door is locked.

At this point, we have an apparent break-in, blood, locked room and missing roommate whose phones are both out of service. This is where Amanda begins to panic and tries to get into Meredith's room and finally calls her mom who says to call the police.

Raffaele calls his sister who works for the police and she says to call the emergency number 112. Raffaele calls 112 (twice) then they both go outside to wait for the police.

Soon after Raffaele called the 112, the postal police showed up and saw Raffaele and Amanda standing outside the cottage with mop and bucket in hand.

 

[Kaosium]

I know Im playing "armchair witness" or "armchair potential murderer" here, but I cannot imagine seeing both an open front door, and blood on a bathmat and sink, and NOT being more suspicious and afraid. I don't know a single woman who would leave a mess like that of menstrual blood, especially living with other roommates who bring boyfriends home. I don't know how dark it was in the bathroom, Im not sure if she saw the footprint before she took a shower or what, but again, it makes be suspicious.

Fair enough, though I am often less observant--I might not even have noticed. If I did I would guess someone had an accident or something and went out to get something, murder is a pretty rare event, that might not even have occurred to me.

 

[Kaosium]

No Kaosium, I dont believe you actually did (or do ?)

One obvious feature of a conspiracy theory and very noticeable in this case, your own arguments are a perfect example, is this:

Regardless of the variables on the lefthand side of the equation - the righthand side or result is always the same.

In the case of your arguments you have most of the variables wrong - I keep correcting your errors.You complain that I wont give you enough information so you can avoid these mistakes - I respond, as I did in our early exchanges, that it wouldn't make a difference as you already know the answer.


No amount of information to plug into the lefthand side will change that.

For one thing that's because to some the 'right hand' column is apparently trying to prove Amanda and Raffaele were in that room at 11:30 killing Meredith. That can't possibly be as it's disproven by the medical evidence and the forensics, so attempting to find something in the left hand column that will make it possible is fruitless.

What I want those variables for is so I can piece them together and build a cohesive theory of what really happened in all particulars because this issue fascinates me.

ETA To apply this to Kevin Lowe's conspiracy theories [or 'speculating' as you call it ] he doesn't have a variable*, which is actually available, from the LHS. Once he does get it he will apply a 'constant' of his own invention [Maxim A or B, as I termed it earlier] so that the result on the RHS remains the same.

*The date RG was ID'd by the cops (from the print)

No, that really isn't how it works. However if you have a few pieces of evidence you can propose a theory and see if you can find the other pieces to corroborate it. If you can't, or one of your variables is wrong then you have to change it or you'll end up doing what the Perugian police did and try to smush the pieces together to 'prove' your theory.

 

[Dan O.]

Didn't I say if I hear mole or wacked anymore I would shove a pencil in my ear? Can we pick a new phrase at least?

I think that would be juicing the piglet.

Anyway, I remember her saying that she went to Filomena's bathroom to get her hairdryer, I think at first I thought she dried her hair in that bathroom (the turd bathroom), but I guess what actually happened is she went back to her own bathroom to dry her hair?

I had remembered it as she dried her hair in the other bathroom. Looking again at the email she sent:

i left the bathroom and got dressed in my room. after i got
dressed i went to the other bathroom in my house, the one that
filomena dn laura use, and used their hairdryer to obviously dry my
hair and it was after i was putting back the dryer that i noticed the
[feces] that was left in the toilet,​

That might be a bit ambiguous but it appears that the hairdryer is stored just in front of the door between the two sections of the large bathroom. There is a receptacle on the other side of the door but the one above the washing machine may be more appropriate given the large mirror there.

Putting away the hairdryer, she would have returned to the door separating the room and there could have sniffed that there was something amiss which would require closer inspection. (I'll spare you the graphic details)

I still would have flushed it if I saw it, even if I didnt plan on staying in there long.

No problem you think. How do you flush this toilet?

However, Dan O. I think said she may not have seen it when she went in the first time. But doesn't she tell Raffaele she saw it when she was in the house showering? Anyway, I still stand by what I say, I still would have flushed it, but it's not AS suspicious if she indeed didnt dry her hair in there...

Again, reading from the Amanda's email:

i then went
into the bathroom where i had dried my hair and looked really quickley
into the toilet. in my panic i thought i hadnt seen anything there,
which to me meant whoever was in my house had been there when i had
been there. as it turns out the police told me later that the toilet
was full and that the [feces] had just fallen to the bottom of the
toilet, so i didnt see it.​

The depth of the bowel makes anything in the bottom appear to disappear when viewed from the side

No sliding is required.

 

[Fulcanelli]

There's several litres of blood in the murder room. It would be pretty hard to avoid it. Rudy didn't.

??? Have you seen any photos of the room at all? There are many blood free areas. If one were conscious of the blood and didn't wish to step in it, traversing the room without getting blood on your shoes is easy...no feats of levitation are required.

What's all this citing that Rudy did as some sort of proof of argument? Rudy stepped in blood and so that means it would have been impossible for anyone else not to? Come on! All Rudy's stepping in blood proves is that he stepped in blood...that's it!

It's easy not to step in puddles when it rains...most people manage to walk around them quite well. Some people don't and get wet feet. That analogy works well in this case.

 

[capealadin]

Oh I never said I wasn't confused.


Now my understanding is that she came in and saw all this kinda got the sense that something was wrong and went back to RS's house for a while BEFORE police were called. Is this true or not?


Also I had originally begun this thread saying "Why would she draw the police to the house" thinking that she had called the police only to be told that the police showed up on their own to return two of Meredith's cell phones. I think they were postal police, and it was THEN that the police were called


Is this correct or not?

They had something to eat, checked * the spill* ( which had apparantly dried) (no need for the whole mop scenario, then) and THEN Amanda mentioned her *concern* to Raffaele.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Don't forget the killers have to run away from the cottage immediately after Nara Cappezalli's 'scream of death'. Running through Perugia naked and carrying a bloody knife could attract the wrong kind of attention.

I don't think shutlt said they ran anywhere 'naked'. But it wasn't 'immediately' anyway, that was never the testimony of the witness. She said she heard running a few 'minutes' after the scream, not seconds.

But in any case, you're quite happy to accept Rudy running through the streets with blood on him and holding a knife with nobody seeing him. Why would the ability to carry out that feat be exclusive to him alone?

In any case, I don't believe Amanda and Raffaele ran far, unlike Rudy who went all the way home, I think they simply just ran across the road to the basketball court.