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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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The same could be said about Sollecito, Filomena and her boyfriend, plus the police, who all had seen the same things Knox had seen.

If you insist that knox should have known meredith was dead in that room. Then the same should be said about everyone else.

The police didn't feel there was enough evidence to warrant them breaking into Meredith's room. Apparently they where not worried and willing to take a report about the break in.
Hi Chris C,
It seems easy to play armchair detective this bloody murder case, doesn't it?

With all of the evidence that Amanda Knox found that morning and then pointed out to 2 police officers,
I find it very strange that EVEN the police did not think that a bloody murder had taken place in the gals apartment!
Why didn't they, using some sort of their professional, investigational skill, put 2+2 together, get worried, sound the alarm and break into Meredith Kercher's bedroom?

Because they might have damaged the door?
Come on!

Heck, Officer Battistelli said in court something to the effect "that he didn't even go inside Meredith's bedroom".
Not even to see if she still might be alive and require medical attention!
What professionalism, probably worthy of a medal!

Gosh I better stop, I'm playing armchair detective again!
Peace, RWVBWL
 
Hi Chris C,
It seems easy to play armchair detective this bloody murder case, doesn't it?

With all of the evidence that Amanda Knox found that morning and then pointed out to 2 police officers,
I find it very strange that EVEN the police did not think that a bloody murder had taken place in the gals apartment!
Why didn't they, using some sort of their professional, investigational skill, put 2+2 together, get worried, sound the alarm and break into Meredith Kercher's bedroom?

Because they might have damaged the door?
Come on!

Heck, Officer Battistelli said in court something to the effect "that he didn't even go inside Meredith's bedroom".
Not even to see if she still might be alive and require medical attention!
What professionalism, probably worthy of a medal!

Gosh I better stop, I'm playing armchair detective again!Peace, RWVBWL


You better, you seem to have missed out that it was AK's lie about the locked door, corrected by Filomena, which caused this and indeed led to problems for her later. [not least because she was earlier panicked by it]

This argument for example has been covered approx 37 times on this thread

Oh BTW I got an answer to your question. :)
 
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But that doesn't make much sense. How would they have got the knife back home for cleaning without some blood or DNA traces on Amanda's bag and presumably her Harry Potter book which apparently she used as a knife sheath to avoid her bag being damaged?

There were no taps in the cottage to rinse it under?

Someone washed 'something' in the sink in the bathroom. And hey, that couldn't have been Rudy since he was washing trainers, feet, socks and trousers in the bidet, not the sink...right?
 
I notice you ignored my statement to delete the portion where I asked if I was mistaken about the CCTV issue. Then you proceeded to sarcastically comment.

The childish behavior on this thread is embarrassing.

Really seriously people, grow the hell up. If you want to have a discussion and someone asks QUESTIONS simply answer the damn question and move on.

Unreal.


I'm sorry about that. If you were to search this thread you would see that these same questions you are asking now were asked and answered many times before. Let's not equate this with childish since children actually have a much higher capacity for learning than we give them credit for.
 
There were no taps in the cottage to rinse it under?

Someone washed 'something' in the sink in the bathroom. And hey, that couldn't have been Rudy since he was washing trainers, feet, socks and trousers in the bidet, not the sink...right?

Somebody most likely washed their blood covered hands in the sink. And if the knife actually was the murder weapon and had only been given a quick rinse, the forensic genius Stefanoni would have been able to find DNA in Amanda's bag.
 
I think Amanda did today what needed to have been done earlier - apologize to Patrick and give sympathy for the fate of Meredith and to the Kerchers. While some may say too late it still needed to occur whatever the reason behind doing so. I don't know if it is too little too late, I will leave that for others to judge. I imagine, depending on which side one is on, will be one's opinion of her statement today.

I know that there were some who didn't agree with my posting earlier that this apology and sympathy is what should have been done during the first trial and when the family of Amanda first started speaking out on her behalf. If done in the beginning, I don't think it would have hurt Amanda. In fact, I think it would possibly have helped her in both the public's opinion and maybe, even in the court's opinion.

Christianahanna,

I think what Mr. Maresca did was disrespectful to the court, which I hope would admonish him.
 
You better, you seem to have missed out that it was AK's lie about the locked door, corrected by Filomena, which caused this and indeed led to problems for her later. [not least because she was earlier panicked by it]
This argument for example has been covered approx 37 times on this thread
You know, Platonov,
I've wondered about the "did she lock it, did she not", door issue before.
Here's my thoughts, with no fluff for you to swallow!

Weren't housemates Filomena and Laura out of college and didn't both work for a law firm?
Wouldn't that probably mean that they had a full time job, a normal 40 hour work week? I would think so.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe Amanda Knox, being an English speaking student,
might have spent more time hangin' out at the apartment during the daytime with fellow English speaking student Meredith than working Filomena did?
Maybe she knew that Meredith locked her door a lot more often then Filomena knew. Maybe not.
I wonder...

platonov said:
Oh BTW I got an answer to your question. :)
Dude/Dudette!!!
That ain't no answer!
You are just telling me what you might do, which you probably won't!
Come on Platonov!
A simple,
"Hi RWVBWL,
I know that you are curious, so I asked my doctor and he/she said that generally speaking it usually takes 5-6 hours for the "the stomach to start and to finish emptying."
or
""Hi RWVBWL,
I know that you are curious, so I asked my doctor and he/she said that generally speaking it usually takes 2-3 hours for the "the stomach to start and to finish emptying."

Peace, RW
 
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...Waterbury has a Ph.D. in materials science. When he says that one cannot tell whether or not a stainless steel knife has been treated with bleach, I am confident that he knows of what he speaks.

When he says (without a shred of evidence) that Guede was a police informant with the power to insist that 2 ordinary, innocent college kids be wrongfully arrested in order to take the heat for his crime, are you "confident that he knows of what he speaks"???

Where in the "materials science" PhD program do you suppose they delve into the investigation of police corruption in foreign countries, the study of the Italian language, the Perugian crime scene and its players, Perugian police informants, etc.???
 
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Christianahanna,

I think what Mr. Maresca did was disrespectful to the court, which I hope would admonish him.

What did you make of Amanda's "All You Need Is Love" T-shirt?

Her attempts to exchange cards and chocolates with her co-accused during the trial proceedings?

Amanda's little 'dance'/head roll/ arm wave in the courtroom?

(To say nothing of the smiles, giggles, and furtive glances exchanged with her co-accused.)
 
Hello Truethat!
Dan O has 1 of the best timelines goin' on with regards to the brutal, bloody muder that took the life of Merdith Kercher.

I post it here for you and others who have not read it:

1 November 2007

00:02:41 Raffaele called father using landline (262 sec) - Massei Report pg 343
00:41:49 Amanda calls unidentified person (local number) (20 seconds) - Massei Report pg 345
00:57:20 Amanda receives SMS from Raffaele
cell Via dell'Aquila 5-Tower sett.3 Aqueduct - Massei Report pg 345
01:04:58 Amanda receives call from 075/9660789
(cell located in Piazza Dante 26) - Massei Report pg 345
15:48 Meredith texts her English friends that she will be delayed in meeting with them (PT)
16:50 Raffaele is called by his father.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
16:56 Raffaele is called by his father.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
18:21:15 VLC was launched to play the multimedia file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
18:27:50 Meredith (Vodafone) sent an SMS to 348-4673711 engaging the cell Piazza Luppatelli week. 7.
(The signal is received at Via della Pergola 7.) - Massei Report Pg 348
18:29:05 Meredith received a text message from 388-8921724 (hooking the same cell as above)
19:30 TG3 news report starts; Guede claims he left home shortly after the program started.
Source Micheli report. "Coming to the evening of 1 November, R. remember leaving the house as he began the TG3 regional".
19:53 First sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
He is walking through the car park towards the cottage. CCTV time stamp is 19:41. [1]
20:18:12 Lumumba sent text message to Knox saying she didn't need to come to work.
Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page.
(cell Aqueduct Street Eagle 5-wk. 3) - Massei Report pg 345
Amanda and Raffaele start watching Amelie (129min)
(time? source?)
20:22 Second sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
He is walking from left to right along the street, past the car park on the right and the cottage on the left. Fits with Guede's claim to have arrived at the cottage around 20:30. CCTV time stamp is 20:10. [2]
20:35:48 Knox responds with text message to Lumumba.
Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page. Message is "See you later, Good evening" in Italian.
(cell Via Berardi area 7) - Massei Report pg 345
20:40 Amanda and Raffaele at RS's place.[3]
Jovana Popovic of Serbia said Sollecito had agreed to drive her to a bus station in Perugia the night of the murder. ... Popovic went to Sollecito's house at 8:40 p.m. to tell him she no longer needed to go, and Knox opened the door to take the message, the Serbian woman testified. (Did Amanda answer the door because Raffaele was on the phone?)
Amanda says this was before they started watching Amile (Amanda testimony)
Raffaele was supposed to drive her to the station around midnight.
"AK: Later on, she came back and talked with Raffaele, and Raffaele explained to me that she didn't need to be driven to the station any more." about the time they were having dinner. (Amanda testimony)
20:42:56 Raffaele is called by his father, talks for 3 1/2 minutes.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
(cell Beradi Way Area 7) - Massei Report pg 339
20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
(PT=20:45)
Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55.
20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
"In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009) [4]
Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
Logged in phone memory - Massei Report pg 350
21:05 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. [5][6]
21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
Time approximate, based on walk since leaving Sophie. Also matches up with female figure seen walking towards cottage gate on car park video at 20:43. Prosecution claims clock is 10 minutes fast, see 13:34 on Nov. 2 for why it's probably 12 minutes slow. Video available on web is cropped and doesn't show camera timestamps.
21:10 Last human interaction with RS's computer during this night.
Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial[7]\
21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
Massei Report pg 350
22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used.
22:13 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.
Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia. Cell tower may not be significant.
(Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41
22:30 Black man running up stairs near cottage.
Time approximate, Alessandra Formica and boyfriend are descending the stairs of via della Pergola that lead to viale S.Antonio, where their car is parked and where the cottage is. Suddenly a guy who walks in the rush, coming up, bumps into them and runs away. At trial she says "I can rule out that the guy could be Rudy Guede".[8]
22:30-23:00 - Car breakdown at exit to parking garage across from cottage.
Time approximate. Pasqualino Coletta (the driver) testified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during this time.[9]
23:00 Mechanic comes for broken down car.
Time approximate. Gianfranco Lombardi was there for about 10 minutes, noticed a dark colored car parked outside Meredith's place, but nothing suspicious.[10]
[edit]2 November 2007

02:00 Guede spotted at a local nightclub.
Source?
06:02:59 Raffaele's phone receives SMS from Francesco Sollecito
(cell Via Beradi area 7) Massei Report pg 339, 342
09:24 Raffaele receives call from father (248 seconds) - Massei Report pg 342
09:29 Raffaele receives call from undisclosed caller (38 seconds)
09:30 Raffaele call from father (cont?) (cell Via Belardi week. 7) - Massei Report pg 342
10:30 Knox returns to cottage.
From Knox testimony.
12:07:12 Knox calls Meredith's phone with UK number (16 seconds).
Time from phone records on Amanda Knox page.
(cell Eagle Street 5-Torre sett.9 Aqueduct) Massei Report pg 346
12:08:44 Knox call Filomena Romanelli (68 seconds).
From Knox phone records.
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) - Massei Report pg 346
12:11 Knox calls phone Meredith borrowed from Filomena.
From Knox phone records.
12:11:02 Meredith (Vodafone) received call from Amanda (3 seconds) call directed to voicemail
(Vodafone committed by users of Meredith is located in Strada Vicinale S. Mary of the Hill area 1 )
from Massei Report pg 346, 348
12:11:54 (4 seconds) Amanda repeats call to Meredith UK phone
from Amanda's phone record
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) Massei Reoprt pg 348
12:20:44 Filomena calls Amanda.
From Knox phone records
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.9) Massei report pg 348
12:34:56 Filomena calls Amanda (48 seconds)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348
12:35 Postal Police inspector claims to have arrived at cottage.
Looked at his watch according to testimony. (source?)
12:35 Raffaele calls service center to recharge minutes
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
12:38 Raffaele receives SMS confirmation
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
12:40 Raffaele receives call from father (67 seconds)
(cell Square Lupattelli week. 7)
12:46 Postal Police sent off from their HQ after the second phone arrived.
Source?
12:47:23 Knox calls her mother, Edda Mellas. (88 seconds)
From Knox phone records. No mention of police being at cottage. (source?)
(cell cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348
12:50:34 Raffaele Sollecito calls his sister Vanessa Sollecito (39 seconds).
Source phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page. Vanessa, a lieutenant in the Carabinieri, tells RS to dial 112.
(cell Square Lupattelli week. 7)
12:51:40 Raffaele Sollecito calls 112, Italian emergency number. (169 seconds)
From RS phone records.
(cell Eagle Tower Aqueduct sett.l)
12:54 RS makes second call to 112. (57 seconds)
From RS phone records.
(cell Square Luppatelli week 7)
13:00 Postal Police arrive.
Car park video shows black car driving past a couple of times, then someone walking across the street at 12:48. Adjust 12 minutes as camera time was off.
Car in video is a black Fiat Punto.[11] Same vehicle police claimed to have been driving at trial. (Source?)
Arrival could also be interpreted at 12:41 camera time, actually 12:53. While RS was phoning 112.
13:05 Filemena and friends get to cottage.
Estimated, Source?
Meredith's door is kicked in, postal police kick everybody out
13:17:10 Meredith's (Vodaphone) received call from 447853133067 (1 second)
(cell Vicinale S. Maria della Strada Collina week. 7) - Massei Report pg 338
13:24:18 Knox calls Edda again. (2.7 min)
From Knox phone records. Mentions police have arrived (source?).
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347
13:27:32 Knox calls Seattle. (0.4 min)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347
13:29:00 call from police, lasts 5 minutes.
From Knox phone records. (Asking directions?)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7)
13:34 Carabinieri arrive?
Assuming end of phone call for directions is same as arrival time. If true, parking lot camera is about 12 minutes slow. Prosecution has been claiming it's 10 minutes fast, but has never explained why.
13:40:12 Raffaele receives call from father
(Cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.l)
13:50 Raffaele receives call from father (178 seconds)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7) - Massei Report pg 342
13:58:33 Knox calls Edda. (One second call)
From Knox phone records.
13:59:06 Knox calls Seattle. (5.9 min)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
14:33 Raffaele receives call from father (21 seconds)
14:46:14 (102 seconds) Knox is called by Aunt Dorothy Craft, her mother's cousin living in Germany.
Fron Knox phone records.
(no cell location is given) Massei Report pg 347
15:13:43 Meredith's Vodafone receives second call from 447853133067 (5 seconds)
(no cell location is reported) - Massei Report pg 338, 348
15:30 Knox signs a statement at police station.
Mentioned in trial testimony.
15:31:51 Amanda receives SMS from 389/1531078
(cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2 where is located the police) Massei Report pg 347
17:01 Raffaele receives call from father (164 seconds)
(cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2, corresponding to the location of the police headquarters in Perugia)
17:42 Raffaele receives call from father (97 seconds)

Dan O might have made changes since I copied his timeline, so maybe he will let us know.
Peace, :)
RWVBWL
 
ETA: a video showing Patrick in Court (@2:16).
Thanks katy_did,
Excelent video! I think the slides displayed were used by the defense later during the hearing. Some good before/after pics of the cottage totally trashed by the ILE, the pillowcase stain, and many photos I've never seen before.
 
The right of accused in Italy to make self-serving "spontaneous statements" - without having to subsequently face cross-examination - is a curious thing, in the eyes of anyone schooled in the common law.

I've often wondered how I'd deal with such a thing.

Maresca just showed us how it's done. Brilliant.
 
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spontaneous combustion

The right of accused in Italy to make self-serving "spontaneous statements" - without having to subsequently face cross-examination - is a curious thing, in the eyes of anyone schooled in the common law.

I've often wondered how I'd deal with such a thing.

Maresca just showed us how it's done. Brilliant.

Did he do that at any of Rudy Guede's spontaneous declarations? Hmm...
 
so then this is her reaction and then the police show up and she doesn't take them immediately up to Meredith's door and try to get them to break it open?
.

Not only that, she tells the cops that Meredith does sometimes lock the door, almost as if persuading them it's normal, nothing wrong here.. Please don't jump on me guys, I know it could be innocent, but again, it;s another small thing added to the list of seemingly suspicious statements...
 
Did he do that at any of Rudy Guede's spontaneous declarations? Hmm...

I don't know.

Do you?


PS Maybe Rudy isn't as boring/ tangential/ plainly manipulative as Amanda is. As bad as he is at lying, he's slightly better than Amanda. He also appears to be far more articulate in his native tongue than Amanda is in her native tongue.
 
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Not only that, she tells the cops that Meredith does sometimes lock the door, almost as if persuading them it's normal, nothing wrong here.. Please don't jump on me guys, I know it could be innocent, but again, it;s another small thing added to the list of seemingly suspicious statements...
But they're all talking in Italian, right? How much did Amanda really understand and how much of what Amanda said did the others actually understand?
 
There were no taps in the cottage to rinse it under?

Someone washed 'something' in the sink in the bathroom. And hey, that couldn't have been Rudy since he was washing trainers, feet, socks and trousers in the bidet, not the sink...right?

Of all the people involved in this case, who do we know for certain got blood on his/her hands? Do you think Rudy washed his hands before leaving? How much blood and DNA was found on the door/door handle leaving the home? Was their blood on the outside of the door to Meredith's room? Was their blood on the inside of the door to Meredith's room? Was their any bloody hand prints on Meredith's body? What about bloody hand prints on Meredith's purse?
 
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