Is alcoholism a disease or something else?

AlBell said:
In my case, my higher power (the subconscious "me") provided Good Orderly Direction (god as I understand him). The conscious me uses prayerful requests to the subconscious "me" for GoodOrderlyDirection. It's worked fine now for many many days of sobriety, one day at a time.

No religion required.
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Well I was right. That was good. ;) So this is you readily admitting that you do NOT follow the 12-step doctrine of AA, right? You are obviously doing your own thing.

I mean, the AA literature doesn't use words like "prayerful requests," nor does it abbreviate G.O.D. Those things are your invention. The 12 step list says "prayer" and "God." It also capitalizes words like "Him" and "He," which deifies those words, so yes. Religion IS required. Unless of course you twist the words around and invent your own meanings and acronyms.

Also, if you look at the 12 step list and substitute "my subconscious self" for any mention of God, that sounds incredibly similar to Buddhism. :eek: Yep, you guessed it: a religion.

zerospeaks said:
That is 6 claims you have made that I have made and I didn't.
If you would stop putting words in my mouth for a second maybe you could hear something I actually say.
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We both should thank Dancing David.... I was thinking of sifting through these 400+ posts to SHOW you that you're wrong (again), but as I'm sure you've heard (and ignored) before: the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. So prove it. Prove to me that I'm getting your claims wrong. You can't. You can't prove that any more than you can prove that your posts indeed support what you're claiming. Because they don't.
 
Baby Nemesis said:
I'm sure it's not an either/or situation. People can probably become alcoholics with or without their genes playing a role, and the severity of their alcoholism will probably depend on a number of things.

I mentioned a book in another thread once that illustrated this. I'll quote part of what I said here since it's relevant. The book doesn't actually have anything to do with alcoholism, but happens to mention an experience the author had in a hospital working with alcoholics:

... But perhaps some good approaches just hadn't been tried with them that would have worked on some. Motivational counselling might go quite some way to changing the mind-sets of some of those people - talking them into being convinced that giving up will actually have benefits they really want, rather than simply being something they have to deny themselves. This might be one reason why religion can work for some - it can give them the promise of a new hopeful start in life, as well as a new set of things in their lives they can enjoy, which make up to some extent for the loss of drink in their lives so they're not just faced with a big void.
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This article, based on a book called Freedom From Addiction contends that addiction is caused by very real physical phenomena working alongside psychological ones, and yet it can be mastered without recourse to a higher power or professional help, and by psychological means, (although clearly withdrawal from some things will have to take place under medical supervision). It explains in detail some psychological techniques that can be used. Just what percentage of addicts trying to stop it would help, I don't know. Still, such techniques might very well have a much higher success rate than Alcoholics Anonymous - I've read that their success rate is extremely low.
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Interestingly enough, just a couple of days ago, there was a programme on BBC Radio 4 about how incentive schemes were motivating addicts and others to stop problem behaviours. It said trials had been done, and surprisingly, even the promise of small amounts of money were enough to spur some addicts on to change. Here's a synopsis of the programme where it's also possible to listen to it for the next few days.

Incentives probably wouldn't work for everyone, but it appeared that people with years-old addictions were changing. It seemed that if they had something positive to aim for rather than just worrying about the negative consequences of carrying on what they were doing, they had more motivation to change. Here's an older article about the scheme: Shopping voucher plan for addicts

Drug addicts receiving treatment should be given shopping vouchers to encourage them to kick their habit, an NHS body has suggested.

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence accepts the idea for England and Wales is controversial.

But evidence from international trials shows modest financial incentives can cut drug abuse by hardened addicts. ...

The NICE group looked at evidence from more than 20 trials, mainly done in the US.

The results convinced the group that incentive schemes worked and were cost-effective.

Studies have shown many people with drug problems respond much better to positive incentives than to programmes which focus on punishment and make them feel guilty. ...
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A few days ago, there was also a programme on television that featured an addict; it was a science documentary about whether gene therapy will soon be able to help people with various genetic diseases. One person featured had been severely alcoholic, so much so that he'd even resorted to taking his children's money to buy alcohol; but he'd managed to give it up, and now he would exercise intensively instead, running marathons and things, which on the one hand was a triumph because it proved he'd achieved the admirable feat of giving up while he was still healthy enough to push his body to great things, but on the other hand it could be seen as a replacement addiction, just doing something else to excess. Anyway, he wondered if his alcoholism could be genetic. He was convinced it must be, because he didn't understand how else his could have got as bad as it did. He was taken to see a science experiment on mice where one of them was drinking a lot more than the others, and it was concluded it was because it had a genetic variation. He found a company on the Internet that said they could test people's DNA to see if it contained some genes that were recognised as potentially having an influence on how prone people are to addiction, and he sent a DNA sample to them. He was disappointed with the results, because they suggested his genes might have an influence of about 20% on his behaviour while environmental factors determined the rest of his behaviour. He didn't want to believe it. That came at the end of the programme. The programme did suggest more research needs to be done. Here's a summary of the programme. The page has a link to where it can be watched if anyone's interested.

But there are almost certain to be multiple factors that generally lead to alcoholism and other addictions, not just one.
 
MikeSun5 said:
Well I was right. That was good. ;) So this is you readily admitting that you do NOT follow the 12-step doctrine of AA, right? You are obviously doing your own thing.
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As they say, take what you like, leave the rest.

I mean, the AA literature doesn't use words like "prayerful requests," nor does it abbreviate G.O.D. Those things are your invention. The 12 step list says "prayer" and "God." It also capitalizes words like "Him" and "He," which deifies those words, so yes. Religion IS required. Unless of course you twist the words around and invent your own meanings and acronyms.
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You are beginning to 'get it'.

Also, if you look at the 12 step list and substitute "my subconscious self" for any mention of God, that sounds incredibly similar to Buddhism. :eek: Yep, you guessed it: a religion.
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So near, and yet so far. You have a nice day, hear?
 
AlBell said:
Fixed with overstrike & italics. And that will be my last comment on this derail. :)
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Highly doubt it. :p

It's funny... By changing only the word "religion," it looks like you've accepted the rest of the sentence. Which means you think alcoholism is a disease that can be cured. One of the cures being a non-religioius mediation program that has nothing at all to do with a Christian God. Got it. :rolleyes:

It'd be awesome if syphillis could be cured with prayerful requests to your subconscious.
 
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Calling alchoholism a disease is a copout- it's a way to deflect individual responsility. Alchoholics made choices that led them into their perdicament- and for them or their enablers to insist they are not responsible for their actions because of 'a disease' are simply denying reality. The first step to beating addiction is to take reposnsibility- Calling it 'a disease' is the rejection of personal responsibility.

Alchoholism is rife in my family- I know what it is, and it isn't a disease. What it is is substance abuse. The alchoholics are drunks because they choose to drink. Alchoholics are junkis, with alchohol being their drug of choice.
 
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Titanic Explorer said:
Calling alchoholism a disease is a copout- it's a way to deflect individual responsility. Alchoholics made choices that led them into their perdicament- and for them or their enablers to insist they are not responsible for their actions because of 'a disease' are simply denying reality. The first step to beating addiction is to take reposnsibility- Calling it 'a disease' is the rejection of personal responsibility.

Alchoholism is rife in my family- I know what it is, and it isn't a disease. What it is is substance abuse. The alchoholics are drunks because they choose to drink. Alchoholics are junkis, with alchohol being their drug of choice.
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Apparently you have the same myopic and narrow view of UncaYimmy on the It's the Calories Stupid thread. Of course for some people Alcoholism is a Disease, but that's not to say ALL forms of habitual drinking and alcohol abuse are a Disease. I think that the Disease Model of addiction is overly broad, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have some validity in some cases.

I honestly can't comprehend why so many people think that all people have equivalent degrees of "choice." The True Alcoholic doesn't have any more conscious control over his behaviours than those with serious over-eating disorders (or serial rapists that can't control their compulsive behaviour).

I may not be a strict Behaviourist, but in the end, the behaviours exhibited by many people are indicative of how relative the scale of Free Will is (from minimum to maximum). And there are any number of deterministic factors that severely limit the capability of making rational cognitive choices ("choices" made by our limbic systems are not really choices at all).

I'm not a strict Determinist either, but more and more the science clearly demonstrates that Determinism plays a greater role on behaviours than most people like to admit. Everyone would rather believe that they have complete control over their behaviours and abilities to make rational decisions; nothing could be further from the truth.

This really isn't an either/or prospect. Sometimes the Disease model of addiction is useful, and sometimes it's not.

GB
 
Gandalfs Beard said:
Apparently you have the same myopic and narrow view of UncaYimmy on the It's the Calories Stupid thread. Of course for some people Alcoholism is a Disease, but that's not to say ALL forms of habitual drinking and alcohol abuse are a Disease. I think that the Disease Model of addiction is overly broad, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have some validity in some cases.

I honestly can't comprehend why so many people think that all people have equivalent degrees of "choice." The True Alcoholic doesn't have any more conscious control over his behaviours than those with serious over-eating disorders (or serial rapists that can't control their compulsive behaviour).

I may not be a strict Behaviourist, but in the end, the behaviours exhibited by many people are indicative of how relative the scale of Free Will is (from minimum to maximum). And there are any number of deterministic factors that severely limit the capability of making rational cognitive choices ("choices" made by our limbic systems are not really choices at all).

I'm not a strict Determinist either, but more and more the science clearly demonstrates that Determinism plays a greater role on behaviours than most people like to admit. Everyone would rather believe that they have complete control over their behaviours and abilities to make rational decisions; nothing could be further from the truth.

This really isn't an either/or prospect. Sometimes the Disease model of addiction is useful, and sometimes it's not.

GB
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Try again.
I've seen alchoholism up close. The alchoholic, like the drug addict makes the choice to get their fix. They choose....The responsibility is on them. To suggest somehow they have no control over their decisions simply enables their behavior.

Interesting how alchoholics are given full credit when they choose to quit drinking, yet when they do drink, you think it's not their choice.


Making excuses for alchoholism by claiming the alchoholic has a 'disease' is a copout.
Why stop there? Why not claim obese people are not to blame for their overeating, since they have a 'disease'.
 
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Titanic Explorer said:
Try again.
I've seen alchoholism up close. The alchoholic, like the drug addict makes the choice to get their fix. They choose....The responsibility is on them. To suggest somehow they have no control over their decisions simply enables their behavior.

Interesting how alchoholics are given full credit when they choose to quit drinking, yet when they do drink, you think it's not their choice.


Making excuses for alchoholism by claiming the alchoholic has a 'disease' is a copout.
Why stop there? Why not claim obese people are not to blame for their overeating, since they have a 'disease'.
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You have no data to back up your assertion that ALL alcoholics "choose" to be alcoholics, any more than UncaYimmy has that ALL Obese people "choose" to be Obese.

All you have is personal anecdote and a false extrapolation; in essence you're making an unfounded sweeping generalization.

GB

PS: I've seen Alcoholism up close and personal too, so my anecdote cancels your anecdote. :p
 
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Titanic Explorer said:
Try again.
I've seen alchoholism up close. The alchoholic, like the drug addict makes the choice to get their fix. They choose....The responsibility is on them. To suggest somehow they have no control over their decisions simply enables their behavior.

Interesting how alchoholics are given full credit when they choose to quit drinking, yet when they do drink, you think it's not their choice.


Making excuses for alchoholism by claiming the alchoholic has a 'disease' is a copout.
Why stop there? Why not claim obese people are not to blame for their overeating, since they have a 'disease'.
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I would just clarify, while people make teh choice to use, which I have said repeatedly in this thread, so I agree with you in that regards, they do not choose to have the biological predisposition.

Also a large number of people who engage in addiction are using less than healthy coping skills to deal with other conditions, some of which are classified as mental illnesses.

Now I have to say I am just clarifying and not disagreeing, I believe that alcoholism is a disease in the sense that it is a focus of medical treatment. And I have been considering that it might even be like type II diabetes.

However as stated in this thread before, I classify it as a behavioral disorder and not a disease in the common sense. People who are addicts need to choose not to use, which takes, effort, practice and support.
 
Dancing David said:
Now I have to say I am just clarifying and not disagreeing, I believe that alcoholism is a disease in the sense that it is a focus of medical treatment. And I have been considering that it might even be like type II diabetes.

However as stated in this thread before, I classify it as a behavioral disorder and not a disease in the common sense. People who are addicts need to choose not to use, which takes, effort, practice and support.
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There is nothing wrong with that statement at all. I look at alcoholism (and overeating, and drug abuse and other addictive behaviors, heck, even diabetes, atherosclerosis and the like) like this:

Effort = Making a daily commitment to change.
Practice = Learning new ways to make decisions, usually through behavior therapy, changing the home environment, changing the social environment.
Support = Simple human interaction, supportive meds (Antabuse, Vivitrol, Campral in the case of alcoholism), support groups, family intervention, etc.

It's the way we treat many behavior-related health issues.

So is alcoholism a disease . . . I say the question is really irrelevant. The point is to find the intervention (doctors, psychologists, AA, a good friend) that will work for each individual.

ETA: I didn't mean to put that face on my post, but I noticed it too late . . .
 
Well, I confess that I haven't read all these 11 pages--Who Would? Unless you'd been following it as it unfolded.

I did read the first page and the last couple.

I once had a very enlightening conversation with a young lady who was fresh out of an Alcohol/Drug abuse treatment.

*******************

Me: I don't want to be argumentative--But I've never gotten "Alcoholiam is an Illnes." No other illness(except for other Addiction Illnesses) involves will-power.

Will-Power will not keep me from contracting Malaria--If the right skeeter bites me. Will-Power will not stop Cancer's Spread.

Now they may be far and few between, but I am persuaded that there are Alcoholics--That if you kidnapped them and locked them into a room, with an opened bottle of whiskey on the table, and no cap in the room.....

Some of them would go a month or more, and never take a drop of the Whiskey.

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Her Answer: The disease is not predicated on whether your Iron-Willed friend takes a drink or not.

The disease is that he wants to. He accepts that he is an alcoholic. He knows that the contents of that bottle will bring him only misery and suffering; and he knows that the next time he gives into that craving may very well mark the absolute end of his last sober episode.....

And knowing all that--he still wants to drink it. He may resist the urge manfully, but his Sickness is that ill-founded Desire.
 
RVM45 said:
Well, I confess that I haven't read all these 11 pages--Who Would?
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Not that interesting of a read. I can save you some time:

One group says alcoholism is a disease.

One group says alcoholism is not a disease.

:D Sorry.

The alcoholism is a disease group points to definitions for "alcoholism" as provided by the AMA, among other trusted medical sources. Some of the definitions include the word "disease" when describing alcoholism.

The alcoholism is not a disease group points out the lack of consistency when something is labeled a "disease," and suggests alcoholism is instead a lifestlye choice and/or mental disorder.

Evidence was provided that shows more research is needed before we can definitively say that people are hereditarily predisposed to alcoholism (or addiction at large). As of right now, scientists (and posters here) disagree.

I thought this was noteworthy: Somebody did mention how the idea that alcoholism is a disease is almost exclusively American. No evidence was provided to prove that claim, but organizations in the US that fight disease do tend to get a lot more money than ones fighting addiction.

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I tried to be unbiased when describing this thread, but it's really hard. ;) IMO, calling alcoholism a disease effectively puts obesity and polio on the same playing field. I don't think they are.
 
MikeSun5 said:
Not that interesting of a read. I can save you some time:

One group says alcoholism is a disease.

One group says alcoholism is not a disease.

:D Sorry.

The alcoholism is a disease group points to definitions for "alcoholism" as provided by the AMA, among other trusted medical sources. Some of the definitions include the word "disease" when describing alcoholism.

The alcoholism is not a disease group points out the lack of consistency when something is labeled a "disease," and suggests alcoholism is instead a lifestlye choice and/or mental disorder.

Evidence was provided that shows more research is needed before we can definitively say that people are hereditarily predisposed to alcoholism (or addiction at large). As of right now, scientists (and posters here) disagree.

I thought this was noteworthy: Somebody did mention how the idea that alcoholism is a disease is almost exclusively American. No evidence was provided to prove that claim, but organizations in the US that fight disease do tend to get a lot more money than ones fighting addiction.

******************

I tried to be unbiased when describing this thread, but it's really hard. ;) IMO, calling alcoholism a disease effectively puts obesity and polio on the same playing field. I don't think they are.
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Somehow you missed the third group, of which I and Dancing David are a part of: the goup that posits that in some cases the Disease Model of Addiction is appropriate and in other cases it is not (or-in DD's case, that under certain definitions of Disease, alcoholism and/or addictions fit the the bill, and under other definitions they do not).

But I suppose THAT position is too Reasonable for a bunch of alleged Reasoners stuck on their own pet Absolutes. :rolleyes:

GB
 
Gandalfs Beard said:
Of course for some people Alcoholism is a Disease,
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No, it isn't.

I think that the Disease Model of addiction is overly broad, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have some validity in some cases.
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Yes, it does. Actually the idea is invalid regardless of the "Disease Model."

The True Alcoholic doesn't have any more conscious control over his behaviours than those with serious over-eating disorders (or serial rapists that can't control their compulsive behaviour).
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Except we aren't talking about someone who is already an alcoholic, but becoming one in the first place. As for your other examples.....sweet, let's not just deflect accountability for becoming alcoholics, but over-eaters and rapists too! Why stop there? How about murderers, robbers, and people who cut you off in traffic? It's not their fault. They have a disease! A syndrome! A condition!

:forehead slap:

This really isn't an either/or prospect. Sometimes the Disease model of addiction is useful,
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...to wrap fish bones in, maybe.

Sorry, and you said what you said very eloquently btw, but IMO it's patently absurd, and all the philosophizing and intellectual rationalizing in the world doesn't change that. No "disease" compels a person to put a bottle of booze to their mouth or a needle in their arm (etc etc etc).
 
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