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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Its the closest one to the camera

So you have your right foot on the rock, the left one in the grating, launch yourself upwards putting your weight on your left foot and grab the windowsill, then put both feet at the top of the grating and climb in. Maybe portly middle-aged defence attorneys from London might find that impossible, but not Rudy. It's a basketball move, pretty much.
 
I think there is no error, and I think the actual trial should not be seen as the mirror of a game. You can claim you successfully refuted something on a photo you have found and on your "common sense", but this assertion is nothing but a game, it's on a level deteched from reality.
You are as entitled to such a view as I am to my view that your lack of meaningful comments indicate you cannot point out a flaw in my reasoning.

Than you assume "ILE" must not only openly lie about soil conditions, but also have missed shoeprints on soil.
You surely misunderstood me. I don't have to assume it and I didn't. It's you who have to assume that both
1. There must have been some tracks left.
2. ILE couldn't possibly have missed them.

For me it's entirely sufficient to show that you cannot be sure about both of them being true. Common sense indicates walking on dry leaves doesn't necessarily leave detectable prints or makes the shoes dirty. Reviewing the case shows that ILE could and in fact did miss traces and leave them untested, including shoeprints. Thus, while it would be sufficient that one of your assumptions are not reasonable, in fact both of them are very much unsupported.

When I mean "judge" I do not mean exaclty in the sense of authority and not in reference to one specific person, but in the sense of the role of the judge, and his activity. A judge can be similar to a refrain who assigns a point to sides playing in a game.
I see you don't mean judge Massei (that would be hilarious indeed), but some abstract idea of an Italian judge.
Again I can only say that I am fully aware how scarce chances for justice Amanda and Raffaele have. However I try to keep my reasoning strictly logical, and unconstrained by what could or couldn't be said in court, bought or not by jurors or judge or what would result in slander case or not.
While I'm keeping track of the court case I'm more interested in knowing the truth of the events of the crime and following investigation.

good night :)
 
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So you have your right foot on the rock, the left one in the grating, launch yourself upwards putting your weight on your left foot and grab the windowsill, then put both feet at the top of the grating and climb in. Maybe portly middle-aged defence attorneys from London might find that impossible, but not Rudy. It's a basketball move, pretty much.

I personally wouldn't say it's impossible, my personal opinion is that it would be difficult and an unlikely entry point. Shuttit made some good points about reaching in to undo the latch, etc.
 
Here's the thing about the whole clothing issue: what are the odds AK and RS murdered MK but beforehand stopped and said "Hey, you'd better change clothes first because I think your friend's girlfriend has a picture of you wearing that shirt."



Originally Posted by Solange305
When Popovic came by, did Amanda still think she had to work? I would think she would change into different clothes to go to work. That is just an assumption on my part, admittedly

She didn't have a work uniform or anything like that. A bar like Patrick's would be very much a 'come as you are' sort of enterprise for the staff and clientele.


So, what was she wearing - Did Popovic testify on this ?

What was she wearing later in the evening ?
Is it possible to remove (some) clothes.
Is it possible to wash clothes ?
Is it possible to dump clothes ?
Is it possible to wash and then dump clothes ?
Is it possible to own genreric jeans, shirts blouses ?
Is there an inventory of her/their clothes from before the 2nd?

Are the lawyers making a big deal of this ?
[Ignoring the detention rulings as they are now moot]

Is this argument pointless and its resolution unnecessary to secure a conviction ?

Am I being snarky ? :)
 
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I personally wouldn't say it's impossible, my personal opinion is that it would be difficult and an unlikely entry point. Shuttit made some good points about reaching in to undo the latch, etc.

The outer shutters would not close due to the wood swelling. That would make it the best prospect for entering the premises if the other shutters at the girls' apartment were closed.
 
Hi, shuttlt! I think a better qualifier would be "the last one". Amanda's kitchen was full of large, pointy knives.
Was it? I haven't seen pictures. Presumably there are some knives. I've no idea what they look like in order to make a judgement. For all I know the sharp knives were dirty from use and clearly hadn't been used in the murder. Can you offer more information?

Were any of those tested repeatedly by overriding and cranking up the machine?
No, but then again I don't know why no knives were taken from Amanda's, if indeed that it the case. Steffanoni claimed that their appeared to be a smear of material in the scratch she tested, hence her testing it. Perhaps on the other knives there was no item of interest that seemed particularly worth testing. In any case, it was Amanda and Meredith's kitchen and Raffaele had been in the kitchen... finding their DNA on one of the knives wouldn't have been as significant, so perhaps they didn't pursue it quite so far for that reason.

Raffaele had a "collection" of knives much more suitable for that crime. Those tested all negative, and were tested in a standard way. His kitchen knife was the last one and not exactly fit for the murder. After all it didn't match the wounds or the imprint.
The policeman who collected the knife had seen the body and thought it looked plausible. The experts clearly disagree with one another about how correct he was. Again, Steffanoni says she saw something in the scratch on the knife, maybe she didn't see anything like that on the other knives.

The fact that it was the last interestingly coincidences with the unusual testing methods. Of course they could simply "retest" one of his "collectibles", but I think it would be even more suspicious.
I can't unpack these sentences. Anyway, why retest the other knives. What do you expect to find?

Stafanoni didn't release her logs and data. We don't know what really were the other results and how many there were before she came up with something satisfactory.
The judge seemed happy with what was released. If data is still lacking the defence can request it, as they seem to have done. If the court decides the request has merit then what ever material is released will either show something, or it will not.

2. The odds of the contamination coming from Meredith's DNA are still quite good. The cops that handled the knife were investigating the crime scene.
How many days previously? None of their DNA turned up, but some of Meredith's did that they had carried about all that time?

Stefanoni's lab tested lots of her items.
Sure, and lots of other stuff too no doubt. In order for this to be likely, surely we need to show that right before the knife something else relating to Meredith got tested in the same machine.

Amanda, who lived with her, frequented Raffaele's kitchen. Even after the crime she was at the crime scene many times, and spent a few days at Raffaele's before their arrest (That would be intermediary transfer, but still possible).
Quite unlikely though I think.

I think it is important there were no blood on that knife.
Picky, I know, but we don't know that there was no blood, only no detectable quantity. Whether it is significant or not, I don't know. How hard is it to clean away blood so it can't be detected? I can't remember which test was used, it's one that detects the iron in the haemoglobin, isn't it?

Do you know what time they contacted the network again?
Around 6am, which doesn't sit altogether comfortably with when they said they slept until, but it's a minor enough thing to get wrong I suppose.
 
The issue is of very definite provenance. The police made the claim. I guess somebody forgot to tell them that thorough scrubbing + bleach = no DNA.
Only if you do it right, and even then, are we sure bleach must have been used?
 
I thought the way she defined her role was unusual if not unprofessional.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/13/kercher-knox-trial

Thank you RoseMontague for pointing this out.
"Under cross-examination the police interpreter, Anna Donnino, described her role as that of a "mediator" rather than a mere translator of words."

Mediator?!?
Gosh that's a strange term to use.
That's reminds me of the person I had to deal with before my civil rape case went to trial.

I wonder why she would consider herself a mediator?
Might it be because the police were already yelling at Amanda Knox as early as Nov. 3, 2007.
Isn't that just the day after Meredith Kercher was discovered brutally stabbed to her death?

Why would they already be yelling at her? She was not even a suspect yet!

I wonder if the cops were yelling because they just did not understand the English speaking Amanda Knox who,
unlike Meredith's other frighened English speaking friends Robyn Butterworth and Amy Frost,
did not leave town, but simply stayed in Perugia trying to hopefully help the police solve the murder of her friend and housemate.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL
 
I guess they had a month or two to buy it. Somehow I can't imagine Raffaele's landlord coming every few days to count the knives.
I imagine that it would only be an issue if the police checked with the landlord. If that sharp knife really is the only one he had, they might wonder. The real risk would have been remote, unless the police were very suspicious of them, which of course they were. Again, I think accurate risk assessment becomes a little flakey under the kind of pressure they would have been under, where the slightest slip means years in prison.
 
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But Amanda was wearing a specific set of clothing when Popovic came round to Rafaelle's apartment just before 9 pm. Those clothes were later found in her room at the cottage with no bloodstains, i.e. she left them there after her shower.
Or left them the previous night (possible, but I've no idea why).

So did she get changed after this visit into some separate murder outfit, or did Amanda and Raffaele enter the cottage at 11:30 pm, immediately remove all their clothing, high five Rudy, kill Meredith, quickly get dressed again, and then run away from the cottage?
Or did Amanda not get very bloody at all during the murder? It's not as if there is arterial spray throughout the apartment, or even the murder room.
 
Only if you do it right, and even then, are we sure bleach must have been used?

It's stretching the bounds of credibility to imagine they wouldn't scrub every inch of the knife. Personally I would have left the whole knife soaking in bleach for several hours. Then boil it for an hour in a big pan of water. Zero chance of anybody finding anything.
 
just in the nick of time

Only if you do it right, and even then, are we sure bleach must have been used?

shuttlt,

The question of whether the police claimed bleach was used was a very contentious one (BobTheDonkey and I had quite a go-around). Stefanoni said that it might have been used, IIRC. However, cleaning with bleach is not difficult. We know that various concentrations work, based on the citations I provided. The hard part is rinsing it away completely, so that when one uses a pipet the next time, the good DNA is not also damaged.

You may find mention of bleach nicking the DNA backbone. A nick is a break in the phosphodiester backbone. It would render the DNA unable to be amplified properly in PCR.
 
Or left them the previous night (possible, but I've no idea why).


Or did Amanda not get very bloody at all during the murder? It's not as if there is arterial spray throughout the apartment, or even the murder room.

There's several litres of blood in the murder room. It would be pretty hard to avoid it. Rudy didn't.
 
There is a companion site on fraud. I don't know exactly how common DNA contamination is, but it absolutely not a one-in-a-million kind of deal.
I quite agree that it isn't. I'm just not sufficiently satisfied that that is what happened in this case. If it turns out that the previous sample in the machine is a plausible source of contamination, or some other such discovery, I'll reconsider. I certainly don't deny that contamination is a possibility here. The same with the bra clasp.

If it is contamination and the whole thing is a giant mistake, then they are both very unlucky. That kind of bad luck does certainly land innocent people in jail.
 
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I quite agree that it isn't. I'm just not sufficiently satisfied that that is what happened in this case. If it turns out that the previous sample in the machine is a plausible source of contamination, or some other such discovery, I'll reconsider. I certainly don't deny that contamination is a possibility here. The same with the bra clasp.

Do you now agree from looking at the photo I posted that there was a plethora of sharp pointy potential murder weapons at the girls' apartment?
 
Thanks Machiavelli!

This still is somewhat blurry and falsifies the colors. But I can imagine why you chose it instead of many other much better images. I guess you think that because the vegetation look brown in that still it can be interpreted as bare mud and soil. Unfortunately it's still the same vegetation and dry leaves:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=21901http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_427054d02ab2655efb.jpg(click to enlarge)


Looks like leaves on dirt or mulch to me. In your photo it looks more like leaves on dirt than it did in Machiavelli's.

BTW. What image enhancement software are you using to determine the moisture content of the dirt and "dry leaves"? I haven't run across anything which will do that.
 
Thank you RoseMontague for pointing this out.
"Under cross-examination the police interpreter, Anna Donnino, described her role as that of a "mediator" rather than a mere translator of words."

Mediator?!?
Gosh that's a strange term to use.
That's reminds me of the person I had to deal with before my civil rape case went to trial.

I wonder why she would consider herself a mediator?
Might it be because the police were already yelling at Amanda Knox as early as Nov. 3, 2007.
Isn't that just the day after Meredith Kercher was discovered brutally stabbed to her death?

Why would they already be yelling at her? She was not even a suspect yet!

I wonder if the cops were yelling because they just did not understand the English speaking Amanda Knox who,
unlike Meredith's other frighened English speaking friends Robyn Butterworth and Amy Frost,
did not leave town, but simply stayed in Perugia trying to hopefully help the police solve the murder of her friend and housemate.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL
Do you think it's possible you are reading too much into the word "mediator"?
 
Shuttit was invoking one of the many legends about this case. One that was discussed very recently in this thread. I came down hard on him because I am sick of the phony tabloid smears being repeated against Amanda.


This is the kind of stuff I was referring to here -
[stuttlt was actually making a point about visibility with reference to buying or dumping a knife, No?]


I really don't get it - It has no bearing on the case, except to emphasize that the arguments for innocence are based on superficialities/feelings [ in some cases defending Amanda's honour - bizarre but explicable ! ] as opposed to substance.
 
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