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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Hi Just. There is quite a bit of evidence that links Guede to the crime scene. But, DURING? How about the evidence that Links Amanda and Raff? And, if there's no evidence of Rudi in the staged break-in, is he innocent? Glad you had a good time in Peru. You were missed, I know.

Rudy was there. Period.

During the crime? Guede's DNA was all over the murder room and the body. Guede's palmprints was found in the murder room. The evidence that Guede was in the murder room is very solid.

The bra clasp was the only link of RS to the Murder room. The clasp was LCN DNA, handled poorly in a possibly contaminated lab. The evidence that RS was in the murder room is the probability that the LCN DNA was correct, multiplied by the reliability of the lab, multiplied by the contamination factor, multiplied by the prossibility the police framed AK and RS. Even if this last factor is only 2 percent, it still exists and diminishes the probability that the bra clasp evidence is valid. The evidence that RS was in the murder room at all is very slim.

I had a good time in Peru. I know you missed me.
 
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Rudy was there. Period.

During the crime? Guede's DNA was all over the murder room and the body. Guede's palmprints was found in the murder room. The evidence that Guede was in the murder room is very solid.

The bra clasp was the only link of RS to the Murder room. The clasp was LCN DNA, handled poorly in a possibly contaminated lab. The evidence that RS was in the murder room is the probability that the LCN DNA was correct, multiplied by the reliability of the lab, multiplied by the contamination factor, multiplied by the prossibility the police framed AK and RS. Even if this last factor is only 2 percent, it still exists and diminishes the probability that the bra clasp evidence is valid. The evidence that RS was in the murder room at all is very slim.

I had a good time in Peru. I know you missed me.


..... that low ??

ETA That kind of authoritarian pro-police talk will get you blackballed from the club.
 
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Judging by your posts and those of your fellow English-challenged poster platonov, the latter.

.

Your comment about English-challenge is ignored in deference to MA and overworked volunteer mods.

Your argument about *my* affinity for 'one liners' seems also completely misdirected, untrue, and way out of place on this evidence based scientific medium.
 
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Originally Posted by platonov View Post
It wasn't my claim - It was katy did's -- here

We are still waiting for the evidence to back it up - having [as you found before ] a passing familiarity with the AK testimony, I'm not holding my breath.

Ah, I see. Okay, thank you very much. I agree with katy.

I agree with Mary_H's agreement with katy_did. It seemed to me that when katy_did said "I think" that I considered it more of an opinion than a statement of fact. She then proceeded to give the reasons she felt that way and more reasons came out after that in our further discussion.

I am of the same opinion.
 
Judging by your posts and those of your fellow English-challenged poster platonov, the latter.

.

You appear to be confusing me with some sort of association football team from the continent, the English have never challenged me.
 
Rudy was there. Period.

During the crime? Guede's DNA was all over the murder room and the body. Guede's palmprints was found in the murder room. The evidence that Guede was in the murder room is very solid.

The bra clasp was the only link of RS to the Murder room. The clasp was LCN DNA, handled poorly in a possibly contaminated lab. The evidence that RS was in the murder room is the probability that the LCN DNA was correct, multiplied by the reliability of the lab, multiplied by the contamination factor, multiplied by the prossibility the police framed AK and RS. Even if this last factor is only 2 percent, it still exists and diminishes the probability that the bra clasp evidence is valid. The evidence that RS was in the murder room at all is very slim.

I had a good time in Peru. I know you missed me.

I fully expect that it will be proven in the appeal that Raffaele's dna is not on the bra clasp.
 
Frank Sfarzo wrote in December of 2009, "What looks like having played a role is the ruling in the other trial.
The Corte d'Appello, indeed, aligned itself to Massei's ruling by giving to Rudi exactly the same penalty of Knox and Sollecito.
The base penalty of Amanda and Raffaele was indeed 24 years: simple murder with the extenuating circumstances canceling the aggravating ones.
And exactly the same treatment was given to Rudi: aggravating and extenuating circumstances ereasing each other and 24 years of penalty, which, due to the discount by abbreviated trial, became 16."

Frank Sfarzo wrote in May of 2010, "The prosecutor general --which had asked to the Corte d'Assise d'Appello to confirm the 30 years for Guede-- didn't file any appeal. So, while Amanda and Raffaele still risk life in jail --since the prosecution appealed-- Rudi will not take more than 16 years. He could receive an additional discount or he could be acquitted. He has some chances, actually. At least, if The Knife theory will still be alive at the time of his Supreme Court trial. If."

It strikes me as odd that Frank would write this passage as he did if no appeal at all were allowed. Not impossible, just odd. Likewise if the prosecution can appeal the extenuating circumstances in a regular trial, it seems odd that it could not do the same in fast track trial. Again, not impossible just odd. To reiterate, I am not saying that the fast-track deduction itself is subject to appeal, only that the extenuating circumstances might be subject to appeal. If anyone wishes to claim otherwise, let them cite something.

No appeal was allowed, since for Roudy it would have been an appeal of appeal, which is absurd.
(The right to appeal by the prosecution on abbreviated trial is limited by the law also on first instance, but recent changes were appointed to the law sinc this has been a point constitutianally debated).
An appeal to Supreme Court would have been possible, but this would be totally different, it couldn't lead to an increase of punishment, only to a re-trial. I don't see reasons for doing this in Rudy's case. Such a procedure wouldn't bring anything to justice, and an increase of Rudy's punishment or a delay of his trial anyway would bring nothing good to Amanda and Raffaele.
 
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Your comment about English-challenge is ignored in deference to MA and overworked volunteer mods.
Your argument about *my* affinity for 'one liners' seems also completely misdirected and way out of place on this evidence based scientific medium.

Personally, I think your English challenges people not because it is worse than the norm, but because it is better.
 
I agree with Mary_H's agreement with katy_did. It seemed to me that when katy_did said "I think" that I considered it more of an opinion than a statement of fact. She then proceeded to give the reasons she felt that way and more reasons came out after that in our further discussion.

I am of the same opinion.

Well, it appears Ghirga & Dalla Vedova share my opinion.
Or have I that the wrong way around ?

I'm still not getting a prize, am I :)

ETA And that 16 bob was probably ropey anyway.
 
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Hi Platonov,
Sorry this reply to your post is a day late, but hey, the surf was pumping yesterday!:D

Do you believe Amanda Knox when she stated that she found the door wide open when she came home in the late morning to grab a quick shower and change of clothes on Nov. 2, '07?

If so, does this scenerio then sound plausable?
On a cold November night, with the front door unlocked and open,
doesn't that suggest the slight possibility that anyone else could have came into the girls apartment after Meredith Kercher was brutally stabbed to her death too?
And were there not many un-attributed fingerprints found in the residence also?

I just ask this for there are many unanswered questions about what really happened that night.
And with a front door left open, well it adds to the possibilties, I suppose...
RWVBWL

Missed this earlier.

No.
 
There is no evidence he was dragged out of bed. All during the trial testimony, the lawyers refer to both the 1:45 interrogation and the 5:45 interrogation, which took place with the Public Minister. Yes, they forgot to record that one, too.

The judges refer only to the 5:45 statement, and the lawyers also acknowledge the use of the term statement in court (although sometimes the term interrogation is used). In their written documents lawyers use only the definition 5:45 statement.
 
Is a narrative of the crime necessary? There's always going to be loads to chose from, particularly when we can't agree what half the facts of the case are that we are trying to fit the facts around.

I suspect that a prosecution narrative would necessarily seem unlikely. The odds of them getting involved in a murder, prior to the murder, are very low, so necessarily the odds of whatever event caused them to be involved (assuming they were) is many thousands (I'm probably a few orders of magnitude too probable here) to one against. Once the murder has happened the odds increase enormously of course.

If you want me to make up a theory of the crime whose a priori odds are thousands to one against I can, but I don't see it helps any as I won't be the least bit bothered if it gets shot down. I'll just come up with something else.

The problem is that so far none of the pro-guilt posters have even managed to come up with one that passes the sniff test.

The problems none of them have managed to solve are these:

Firstly, the arguments against the Massei time of death are scientifically irrefutable. Meredith can't have died at 23:30 with 500mL of chyme in her stomach from a 18:00 meal, no food matter in her duodenum, and identifiable vegetable fibres and cheese in her stomach. It's as crazy as saying a four metre tall man did it.

Secondly, once you accept the earlier time of death then Nara becomes irrelevant and Curatolo is either irrelevant or actually proves that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. If you abandon Curatolo entirely Amanda and Raffaele have an uncontested alibi for the actual time of death, and if you don't abandon Curatolo then Curatolo is their alibi witness.

Without Curatolo to contradict their alibi we have evidence that the prosecution accepted at their first trial that Amanda and Raffaele were at home until 21:10. We have defence documents to show that someone opened a Naruto file at 21:26, which if watched would run until 21:49. We have the fact that Amanda and Raffaele claimed to have watched Stardust after that, and that they made this claim before the police destroyed the evidence that could have proved or disproved this alibi. We also have defence documents that purport to show that Raffaele's computer was in use throughout the entire time from Meredith's earliest possible time of death (21:05 or so) to the latest possible time of death (maybe 22:00) and even on past the pants-on-head irrational Massei time of death (23:30).

To set against that alibi evidence we have exactly nothing from the prosecution in terms of time-sensitive evidence that proves that they were in the murder house around the time of death. They have luminol results that could have gotten there any time and are ambiguous to boot, they have DNA on a bra clasp and a knife that could have gotten there any time and were not handled satisfactorily to boot, but nothing that contradicts the alibi evidence except Curatolo, who (as I said earlier) exonerates Knox and Sollecito if you believe him.

So we've got strong evidence that Amanda and Raffaele were at home at the time of the murder, a dearth of evidence in the murder room, absolutely no evidence of blood on their clothes, or of missing clothes, no remotely plausible motive, no remotely plausible story about how they teamed up with Rudy to sexually assault and murder Meredith in the tiny possible windows you can open up by disputing the computer evidence, no positive evidence of a staged break-in, no positive evidence of a clean-up, and in fact no remotely coherent pro-guilt narrative.

This is why people like Capealadin are reduced to repeating "Why haven't they done X!? From my totally uninformed perspective I am super incredulous! If you can't explain this they are guilty somehow, it's good enough evidence for me!". Tabloid psychology, trivia and uninformed incredulity are all the pro-guilt side have left.

I would be very happy for a pro-guilt poster to prove me wrong by presenting a coherent pro-guilt narrative that makes sense of the facts, but nobody has even made a decent attempt.
 
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That's why we pointed out to you that your experience is mistaken. You were suggesting you have seen some pictures that could support your position. I asked you 2 or 3 times to share them. The pictures I've seen so far show ground covered with vegetation and dry leaves. No exposed soil or mud.

(..)

This is a frame from a video:

5247979636_f79bf1c681_z.jpg
 
(..)
Actually I used the lawyer picture to show you your error. You stated that although there was little to no precipitation the ground would be wet anyway, because it was always wet there, and the soil must have got on the climber's shoes. The photo clearly exposes your mistake.

I don't have to substantiate anything because it's you who claim that
1. The climber must track soil or grass on his path.
2. It's impossible for the police to miss such traces.

your 1. is successfully refuted by the photo and common sense.
your 2. is weak because: ILE missed and failed to test and record many other traces; apart from doubtful testimony there is no record of any search for the climber's traces. Photos show possible scuff marks on the wall, missing nails, dusty traces on stepped upon cloth pieces beside the window.

So your claim finally hangs only on the unsupported testimony while all the existing physical evidence indicates that the break in was real.

As for the judge, I don't know what judge you're talking about. If it's the same judge that believed that Raffaele persuaded Amanda to carry a huge kitchen knife for protection and Meredith fumbled aimlessly with her phone for an hour then it's not a very successful appeal to authority.

I think there is no error, and I think the actual trial should not be seen as the mirror of a game. You can claim you successfully refuted something on a photo you have found and on your "common sense", but this assertion is nothing but a game, it's on a level deteched from reality. As a person I am also a witness of facts, not a source of pictures. I would never consider the statement "the soil could be dry" as a possible argument, just as it is, neither the Perugia jorors would. Things are under our eyes. Than you assume "ILE" must not only openly lie about soil conditions, but also have missed shoeprints on soil.
(by the way, these two points of yours are in contradiction: stepping leaves a shoeprint mark if the soil is soft and malleable enough, and thus would be soft and malleable enough to be tracked by shoes. If soil is too tough to be tracked by shoes, would not retain any shoeprints).
Anyway you assume two points about the police witnesses, that they lied, and they missed to find prints, both these points are necessary to your idea and both are unsupported. And they are against witnesses.
When I mean "judge" I do not mean exaclty in the sense of authority and not in reference to one specific person, but in the sense of the role of the judge, and his activity. A judge can be similar to a refrain who assigns a point to sides playing in a game. If one side apears unable to defend on one point, the judge would assign a point to the other side. What you always chose to to is go to the acusation and say :"this blow was not perfect, this point is not complete, this argument is not explained anough, is not proven entirely, there is a possibility that this is different". But the judges' work does not consist in this, for sure it does not consist mainly in this. A judge doesn't judge the prodecution theory: a judge is there to judge the defendant. If the defense theory always scores less than the accusation on every point, the defendant looses the match. Here the match is on the existence of evidence of staging. The evidence exists. The defensive arguments are not able to overweight the series of elements pointing to the staging.
 
The judges refer only to the 5:45 statement, and the lawyers also acknowledge the use of the term statement in court (although sometimes the term interrogation is used). In their written documents lawyers use only the definition 5:45 statement.


Well, that complicates things a bit. Do they also acknowledge the use of the term innocent (although sometimes the term guilty is used)?
 
Well, that complicates things a bit. Do they also acknowledge the use of the term innocent (although sometimes the term guilty is used)?

The defence attornyes never addressed thir clients as "guilty", but they address the 05:45 declaration as "statement". Never as "interrogation", whenever they submit it in a written document.
 
The defence attornyes never addressed thir clients as "guilty", but they address the 05:45 declaration as "statement". Never as "interrogation", whenever they submit it in a written document.


How is it that you have seen these documents?
 
This [your later post] is a further example* of why I mentioned the X factor - I don't wish to be rude but how is your 'perception' of bias in Nadeau's article more relevant to the case or upcoming/ongoing appeal than the actual testimony I linked to a few posts back ?

* also as recent examples ..........
- halides1 ongoing arguments regarding when AK slept with some guy OR whether AK was demoted or fired by PL
- along with your own earlier argument that AK or her defence were constrained in their treatment of RG because they didn't want her to look bad
- multiple earlier posts complaining about sensational or prurient articles in the UK media etc
- Indeed going right back to the cartwheel argument that started this thread, much of the Foaker arguments seem predicated on how AK is 'perceived' ** as opposed to the very real evidence that convicted her.

I really don't get it - It has no bearing on the case, except to emphasize that the arguments for innocence are based on superficialities/feelings [ in some cases defending Amanda's honour - bizarre but explicable ! ] as opposed to substance.

** The behavior of the accused after the murder or in court obviously has some bearing.



I don't know too much about this case but the whole nature of your debate is slightly ranty.

The behavior of a nut job is not going to look normal, but that doesn't automatically make her guilty.

I prefer the forensics evidence. So when people raise questions that ask "If she's innocent why is she not blaming RG" is completely irrelevant to me.
 
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