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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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one source

Another unnamed source?!

That's twice!!!

Why do you consider this an acceptable means of establishing an argument, Halides?!

You may as well say, "The Apollo landings were faked and as proof I am offering you this: I have an anonymous source. QED."

treehorn,

I have only offered a single anonymous source, and that person does not post at JREF (you were wrong about that). If you cannot master the arithmatic concepts of one versus two, you don't stand much of a chance trying to understand PCR amplification or other aspects of DNA profiling that require more advanced mathematical skills.

Do we know who was Barbie's source for her claim about Daniel? Do we usually know a reporter's sources? Are you saying that I was lying when I presented Daniel's witness statement?
 
OK, here's a source for calling the 5:45am thing a spontaneous statement:


This is clearly prepared by a lawyer. My money is on "spontaneous statements" being a legal term in Italy. I vaguely recall having this pointed out to me previously.


Yeah, but I dont see how this relates to the point under discussion.

It is indeed a 'legal term' and the defence may have gone along with it for that reason even if they were going to contest it ; after all lawyers propose - Judges/courts dispose.

But the point is ; They didn't contest it*during the trial - merely went to court earlier to have it deemed inadmissible on the main charge.

You were too hard on yourself earlier - Its probably not wise to take certain arguments at face value (apart from mine of course) :)

* the idea that AK, not the cops were the cause of the later 'spontaneous declarations'
 
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I think the ladder stopping and turning into a wall makes it quite a bit harder. Keeping your centre of mass from falling outside your base looks tricky.

Indeed, that's why you need to climb dynamically, not like an old lady.

Giving yourself some momentum you'll grab the sill before the gravity claims you back.

This guy uses "wall run" technique for it, because there is no hand hold below,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qDnkAUiAgY
Rudy could just swing up from the grating bars.
He could also make a sidestep down from the porch to the grating, grabbing the sill first (it's only 1,30 m from the corner), but let's not complicate :)
 
Yeah, but I dont see how this relates to the point under discussion.

It is indeed a 'legal term' and the defence may have gone along with it for that reason even if they were going to contest it ; after all lawyers propose - Judges/courts dispose.

But the point is ; They didn't contest it - merely went to court earlier to have it deemed inadmissible on the main charge.

You were too hard on yourself earlier - but its probably not wise to take
certain arguments at face value (apart from mine of course) :)
But what does the legal term "spontaneous statements" mean that they might decide to contest it? Could it not simply be a catch all term for statements made outside of the normal interrogation process, which these were.
 
Katody Matrass,

Perhaps I don't climb enough walls. I don't recall if any video exists of the defence wall climbing demo? Anybody know?
 
Originally Posted by treehorn

Was "Mark Waterbury" in the courtroom?


Were you there? There were plenty of other reporters. You have been strangely silent on the issue of why they reported something different from Ms. Nadeau.

treehorn, halides1

We have already established that Waterbury is not a credible source ....................

Nor is it esoteric that you are relying on sources that are either deliberately false or else written by someone so incredibly stupid they cant understand simple parts of the Massei report .........
 
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Actually I don't have to assume it. It is entirely possible there where some traces of the climb, and ILE just missed them. Such educated guess is confirmed by various other traces ILE missed and by the fact that there is no proof of any extensive search for such traces.



I'm entirely aware, that the defense is in a serious disadvantage when dealing with such witnesses. I'm not sure the defense have to prove something, it can always state there is no proof the witness is right. After all the burden of proof should be quite high, we're dealing with serious accusations.

But I'm not in court, so I can base my position on reason, not courtroom tactics, and I (hopefully) don't have to be afraid of slander charges.
So I just make an educated guess, that although some witness stated there was no traces it is still entirely possible that Rudy climbed that wall anyway.

Massei's first-rate "reasoning" regarding the ground underneath Filomena's window is on pp50-51 of the translated report. Firstly, it's evident that the court seems to rely (somewhat bizarrely) upon the testimony of Filomena herself, and her boyfriend Marco on the issue of the ground conditions. Furthermore, the Massei report only makes reference to the verbal/written testimony of forensic officer Gioia Brocci (and her assistant) regarding the condition of the wall. There is no discussion whatsoever of any photographs that might have been produced in court to show, close-up, the exact condition of the ground and the wall on 2-3 November. There's no apparent discussion of recorded meteorological conditions in Perugia in the last week of October and 1st November. Given that a major plank of the prosecution's case was that the break-in was staged, they (and the police) appear to have fallen far short in attempting to demonstrate that any assailant would have had to leave marks in the ground and upon the wall. And given that the prosecution has the burden of proof, I'd say that they failed to offer sufficient proof that the break-in was staged, in regard to the condition of the ground and the wall.

Secondly, Massei draws these awesome conclusions about the glass from the window (p51):

"The climber, in leaning his hands and then his feet or knees on the windowsill, would have caused at least some piece of glass to fall, or at least would have been obliged to shift some pieces of glass in order to avoid being wounded by them. Instead, no piece of glass was found under the window, and no sign of any wound was seen on the pieces of glass found in Romanelli's room."

In other words Massei seems supremely confident that anyone breaking in would have (not could have) caused some glass to fall to the outside - for logic that he doesn't care to elaborate upon. Massei also seems very confident that had the assailant instead clambered over the broken glass, he would necessarily have been injured in the process. He appears to be unfamiliar with the concept of gloves and a heavy coat.

Here's his second piece of stellar reasoning regarding the lack of glass on the ground below the window (p51):

"It can moreover be observed that the presence of many pieces of glass on the outside part of the windowsill increases the probability of finding some small pieces of glass on the ground underneath, since there seems to be no reason that so many pieces of glass would all stop just at the edge of the windowsill without any of them flying beyond the edge and falling down to the garden below."

So here, Massei is saying in his inimitable style that there's "no reason" why there should be pieces of glass on the outer windowsill, yet none on the ground. He seems to believe that the glass found on the sill must have been flying backwards with a significant velocity, from his use of the phrase "...would all stop....without flying beyond the edge". In reality, of course, the strong likelihood is that the pieces of glass on the sill had simply fallen vertically down from the pane follwing the impact of the rock, and had merely toppled over upon landing on the sill, to rest in the position on the sill in which they were found. In other words, these pieces of glass were never "flying" backwards to any extent whatsoever.
 
Katody Matrass,

Perhaps I don't climb enough walls. I don't recall if any video exists of the defence wall climbing demo? Anybody know?

That would be great.

On the other hand if they really helped him to get up there it would be a huge blunder by the defense and I think the discrediting video or photos would be all over the press long ago.
 
But what does the legal term "spontaneous statements" mean that they might decide to contest it? Could it not simply be a catch all term for statements made outside of the normal interrogation process, which these were.


Perhaps, we can easily find out [but as you brought it up the onus is on you :) ] - Machiavelli has probably already explained it, these Italians are a lot smarter than some here suppose !

The point is they AFAICS didn't contest it * ..........see earlier posts

* the idea that AK, not the cops or Mignini were the cause of the later 'spontaneous declarations'
 
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That would be great.

On the other hand if they really helped him to get up there it would be a huge blunder by the defense and I think the discrediting video or photos would be all over the press long ago.
When I wrote that I wasn't thinking about the people on the ground helping, though it did cross my mind a few posts back:) It would help me to see it to get an idea of how difficult it is.

Weirder things have come out of this case though than in turning out the people on the ground did give him a leg up. That's not a theory I'm particularly inclined to push though.
 
Perhaps, we can easily find out [but as you brought it up the onus is on you :) ] - Machiavelli has probably already explained it, these Italians are a lot smarter than some here suppose !

The point is they AFAICS didn't contest it * ..........see earlier posts

* the idea that AK, not the cops or Mignini were the cause of the later 'spontaneous declarations'
Where in the trial is it suggested that she caused the interview thing with Mignini that they would contest it, or are we talking purely about the meaning of the word spontaneous in this context?

As for looking it up. I tried and failed to find the Italian legal references before.
 
Where in the trial is it suggested that she caused the interview thing with Mignini that they would contest it, or are we talking purely about the meaning of the word spontaneous in this context?

As for looking it up. I tried and failed to find the Italian legal references before.


No shuttlt , you are reversing the burden of proof :)

katy did made the claim ; you (provisionally ? ) accepted it -
I think I have shown that this claim has not been proven and moreover that the defence lawyers never made this claim [or even brought up] when AK was on the stand.

Therefore it remains (at best) an unsupported supposition of katy did's that has been dealt with.

.
 
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Were you there? There were plenty of other reporters. You have been strangely silent on the issue of why they reported something different from Ms. Nadeau.

No. I was not there.

That is precisely why I am, like you and someone named "Mark Waterbury", in absolutely NO position to undermine Nadeau's report.

"Plenty of other reporters" didn't file the same report?!

"Plenty of other reporters" didn't file a report that I had a delicious French-pressed Illy coffee this morning. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. I assure you.
 
No. I was not there.

That is precisely why I am, like you and someone named "Mark Waterbury", in absolutely NO position to undermine Nadeau's report.

"Plenty of other reporters" didn't file the same report?!

"Plenty of other reporters" didn't file a report that I had a delicious French-pressed Illy coffee this morning. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. I assure you.

If there had been dozens of reporters in your kitchen this morning, all of whom had been employed to report upon your eating and drinking activities (with a particular remit to capture any provocative or dramatic events), then it would indeed have been a surprise if none of them mentioned your coffee. And you've reminded me that I need to order a few more cans of Illy beans :D
 
OK Platonov. I think you're more hard line than me. As for as I'm concerned I'm content to assume that Knox claims the the 5:45am statement wasn't something she asked to make. She could of course be confused again, or lying.
 
please cite

Oh? You're not familiar with the content of Knox's confession to police?

The one where she intentionally named an innocent man as her accomplice?

treehorn,

What is your source for the text of the confession. I hope for your sake that it is not some British newspaper article published only days after the arrests.
 
If there had been dozens of reporters in your kitchen this morning, all of whom had been employed to report upon your eating and drinking activities (with a particular remit to capture any provocative or dramatic events), then it would indeed have been a surprise if none of them mentioned your coffee. And you've reminded me that I need to order a few more cans of Illy beans :D

But what if only ONE of them spoke English, and the rest spoke only Italian?

Who would be able tell Italian audiences what I said (in English) about their incredible Illy coffee other than the lone anglophone reporter?!

And what if down-market Folgers had hired a PR firm to manipulate the Italian reporters in my kitchen in an effort to downplay the supremacy of Illy coffee?!
 
Some posts moved to AAH.

Keep it civil from now on please.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode
 
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