• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't recall ever having seen an explanation of why he didn't break into the downstairs apartment, which surely would have been easier. Is it because he was friendly with the boys who lived there, or that he has a Spiderman fixation?

Perhaps someone can verify this, but as I remember it the downstairs apartment windows all have bars. It could also be that since he was close friends with the guys living there he would have a moral dilemma stealing from them, as opposed to someone he only knew in passing.
 
Quite right about the bars on the window, at least in the photo's I just checked.
 
No, they are quit weak.

They are not designed to support much weight.

Opinions never refute theories and theories never prove anything by themselves. Any facts on the hinges? Could Guede have used the shutters to support his climb?
 
Last edited:
tsig - what are you getting at ?

The blood in the room showed the break-in was staged after the attack.
I'm starting to wonder if I'm becoming neurotically attached to this issue, but don't you mean something weaker than "showed"? Is everybody but me using "showed" and "proved" as shorthand for "is evidence for"?
 
Perhaps I was somewhat flippant, but it's worth keeping in the forefront of your mind that there is absolutely no motive for this crime, and that has to present a problem for any rational person who believes in the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele.

Massei and Mignini got around this by postulating a drug-fuelled sex party that went wrong (after Mignini's original Satanic rite theory got canned), which if you believe that Drugs Are Bad and Sex Is Bad might be plausible to you.

However if your theory requires Amanda and Raffaele to jump off the couch or out of bed at 21:26 just after opening a Naruto file for no reason, grab a kitchen knife, walk briskly to Amanda's house to get there within the very tail end of the conceivable range of times of death and then stab her within minutes of arrival there is no time for a four-way sex and drug party to get out of hand. So what motivated them to pitch in with Rudy, someone Amanda barely knew and Raffaele was a total stranger to, in a three-way murder plot in the space of minutes? People very, very rarely if ever do that.

That's why I've said in the past that there is no coherent prosecution narrative consistent with the facts as we now know them.



The defence asked that the disks be sent to the manufacturer to be repaired so the data could be accessed. The court refused. There's absolutely no technical reason that anyone here is aware of why it should be impossible for the disks to be repaired without needing any fancy opening and scanning, which I believe is a very expensive process.

The court's reasoning, which I found very curious, was that since the contents of the disks was unknown it had a 50/50 chance of helping either the prosecution or the defence to repair them, and since it had a 50/50 chance of helping either then there was no reason to do it at all. Apart from the fact that more information is always better, a principle that you would think professionals in the justice system to understand, it seems intuitively obvious to me that there was a non-zero probability the police destroyed the computer evidence deliberately, and thus a >50% chance that their repair would assist the defence.


You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
The computer alibi ends at 9.10 - this above is just a claim that was not accepted
in the first trial.

You are confusing :eek: RS's computer which was in use up till 9.10 with the damaged pc's which form no part of any posible alibi.
Further testing to find details of an alibi that wasnt claimed has been requested as part of the appeal.
 
Last edited:
Sherlock,

At Perugia-Shock Frank reported, "He noticed that the impact of the rock broke the wood of the frame, removed the dye, and pushed pieces of glass into the wood of the blind. And that the fragments of glass following the explosion of the window were spread in the whole room. All elements compatible only with the speed and the direction of a rock thrown from outside."

Mr. Sfarzo discussed the strengths and weaknesses of Mr. Pasquali's presentation and he concluded, "The consultant tried. The prosecution tried. The truth is that neither of the hipotesys about the break-in can be proven." I suggest each person read his article and come to his or her own conclusion.

Thanks for the link halides1!

Interesting piece of info, I didn't know about it:

In addiction to this the consultant remembered that a stain of presumed blood substance with a hair formation was found on the window, trying to suggest that the intruder injured himself against the latch. The chemical analysis didn't sort anything. For some reason Dr Patrizia/Mrs Stefanoni didn't outdo herself this time. Apparently the beautiful biologist this time didn't force the machine to take some alleles out at all costs. Just by coincidence, it was black hair.
 
I'm starting to wonder if I'm becoming neurotically attached to this issue, but don't you mean something weaker than "showed"? Is everybody but me using "showed" and "proved" as shorthand for "is evidence for"?

No - I'm using showed as shorthand for 'is strong evidence for'

Its possible that the break in was staged before the attack & AK tracked blood into F's room for a different reason later but very unlikely.
 
I just meant that this would make the climbing, or at least the wilder swinging about by his fingertips, trickier. As for the DNA yes, of course the glass is sharp and it might still be difficult to get through without injury.

He must be kicking himself for taking the gloves off once he was in the apartment. That doesn't seem like a clever thing for a house breaker to do.


It gets worse - he is kicking himself (barefoot) for taking off his shoes and socks after the attack -- according to the various hokey-cokey theories dreamt up to explain away the bloody footprint on the bathmat.
 
You need to do some research first before you can make a claim like 'On what planet ...'
He didn't know about the INSIDE shutters on the window......to say the least.

Well, Sherlock Holmes, I think you've misread Massei on this issue (Being vague pays off for Massei :) ).

I remember quite vividly seeing Pasquali's simulation on one of the TV documentaries, and the inner shutters ("scuri") where definitely included.
 
I happen to have a book on data recovery about my person. It mentions three problems repairing broken hard drives.

1. Finding replacement parts.
2. Setting on the ROM chips need to be the same.
3. Even if the disk initializes, the numbering of the sectors may still be stuffed by it being a different board, in which case your filesystem is dead.

Presumably some combination to the above is what happened to the fried disks.

From what I've read about Raffaele's Apple laptop, the disk isn't fried and, presumably they've dumped off an image. Raffaele's appeal mentioned some forensic software. It looks like they've bunged in a bunch of details about what files they are looking for, mainly access/modification/creation dates and out has popped a bunch of files. If that disk was taken apart it's possible that they could recover the past state of the blocks on the disk.
 
I just meant that this would make the climbing, or at least the wilder swinging about by his fingertips, trickier. As for the DNA yes, of course the glass is sharp and it might still be difficult to get through without injury.

He must be kicking himself for taking the gloves off once he was in the apartment. That doesn't seem like a clever thing for a house breaker to do.

Since the clothes Rudy wore when he committed the crime were never found, and from memory the only fingerprint identified as Rudy's was made in blood in the murder room, all we know for certain is that if he wore gloves her removed them before stabbing Meredith or shortly afterwards.

Wiping one's backside in gloves is very awkward, because there's no tactile feedback and the paper tends to slip, so it's possible he removed the gloves to wipe himself and did not put them back on when Meredith came home and caught him on the loo. Another possibility is that he found it impossible to forcibly disrobe Meredith with gloves on and removed them to facilitate sexually assaulting her.

I see no reason to assume that if he wore gloves he removed them before Meredith got home, since so far as I am aware there is no DNA or fingerprint evidence indicative of him doing things with his bare hands prior to that point.
 
No, we started with me pointing out yet again that you had failed to understand a very basic point about this case - in fact one so basic it beggars belief.

Do you know what you actually accomplished? You taught me something. I thank you for it. You filled in a crucial piece of information I must have skipped reading this thread initially as when the break-in usually comes up the main thing argued is the 'impossibility' of getting into that window. One look at that picture and I knew that was silly, so I skipped a lot of that.

I've already made the argument several times - you naturally don't want to accept it.

You know what's funny? I don't even have any proof what you said about that window is true, but I accept it as it makes sense of something that was heretofore incomprehensible to me. I couldn't get what they were talking about there, but now I do. Along with the context provided by Halides, Sherlock Holmes and Juror, I now understand what the issue is here and just why it is definite that rock came from the outside and they tried to conceal that in court and Massei waved his magic wand and tried obfuscate it in his report.

You see, I don't break windows and note what happens, but I do know something about basic ballistics. It's common sense actually. If that rock had come from the direction they tried to pretend it did, there'd be a dispersal pattern, probably in a wide cone shape, more or less matching the trajectory of where it hit the window. Oh, there would be some scatter here and there outside that, and some would fall straight down I'd guess, but the majority of it that separated from the frame would be within that perimeter.

Now, if it had actually come from the direction the prosecution tried to pretend, they wouldn't be asking irrelevant questions of the defense expert and cherry-picking juicy generalizations, they'd have their own ballistics engineer up there explaining in small words so everyone can understand just how obvious it is that if you hit a window with an object most of the debris is going to go in a pattern fully compatible with the laws of physics away from the impact, in this case blasting all the way out to the carpet and the bed. It's will be a completely different dispersal pattern if the window was spun on its axis is 90 degrees or whatever it was. It will be pretty easy to tell, try it at home if you don't believe Dr. Mark Waterbury or a professional forensics engineer like Ron Hendry.

Instead they decided on confusing nonsense about the shutters to hide the fact the window wasn't in the position they say it was, and to explain the amount of glass that ended up right where you'd expect it if the window was right where it ought to have been. I can just guess there's all sorts of glass missing right in front of where they said the window was when it was hit, and it was very cute to pretend the inner shutters deflected much of it because the window was pulled in, which is part of the 'hand wave' they hide with "here we have an infinity of possible variations."

They're trying to pretend that means the laws of physics are temporarily suspended in Perugia, Italy, and no one can tell you what happens when a stone hits a glass window in a general sense. That's silly, there may be infinite variations of how the glass cracks and scatters, but anyone should know the majority of it is going to go away from the impact, and the shutters can't shield it all.

Here it is again - your (pl) inability to follow simple arguments or interpret simple text is why you are still convinced that AK is innocent.The fact you came to this case with that faith-like certainty based on unreason is why reason alone cant shift it.

Actually, I didn't. I wanted to find out something that had puzzled me when I was sitting in a crappy motel between Buffalo and Rochester that had no remote and I happened to see a report on Amanda Knox getting a slander charge filed on her. I figured she was guilty--though I hadn't paid any attention to it at all--I just didn't get what the deal was with filing a charge like that when there were no tapes to prove it one way or another. Plus being in a crappy motel in upstate New York with no remote you make your own fun. They did have Wifi...

The evidence for guilt is straightforward - the fact that you fail to or dont want to accept it is not the fault of the evidence - as your failure after even 2 attempts to understand the broken window is not the fault of Massei or anybody else ; a child could have figured it out in seconds.

Platonov, did you know there are environments where they employ something called 'negative reinforcement' in order to motivate people? They just insult people and berate them and in turn it compels them to learn faster and not get discouraged easily. I know there's probably an error in my theory above, and I'd like you to find it and let me know in no uncertain terms just what it is. You have been very helpful in helping me come to better understanding of this case today, usually we just go in circles and have fun. :)

At any rate, do you know why guys like Steve Moore, 25 year veteran of the FBI doesn't care about the esoteric details of 'theory' in the Massei report? I can guess, it's because someone who really knows how to read a confined murder scene like that bedroom can just study it and realize the evidence collected more or less proves there couldn't have been three people in there. He actually knows something about this, and no amount of ad hominem, pedantry or semantics discredits that knowledge.

Or that Dr. Mark Waterbury didn't bother to figure out just what that confusing morass meant about the shutters and how the rock was employed? Because he knows it's nonsense. The fantasies constructed by the court and Massei to try to twist the evidence that clearly points to something else are for entertainment purposes only. Here's what he knows:

"I’m a materials scientist with a strong emphasis on theoretical mechanics. I have reviewed the evidence of the glass distribution, the pitted inner shutter, the condition of the glass left in and on the window sill, etc. It is my professional opinion that this evidence is clear: the rock was thrown through the window from the outside, not the inside. In addition to the defense expert Sergeant Pasquali, an unpaid independent forensic engineer, Ron Hendry, has also reviewed the evidence and come to the same conclusion. But you don’t have to believe us, because this is a very simple thing. Ask any kid who has just hit a baseball through a window which way the broken glass flew. All that broken glass spread all over Filomena’s room got there because the rock was thrown from the outside. It’s that simple."
 
Last edited:
Since the clothes Rudy wore when he committed the crime were never found, and from memory the only fingerprint identified as Rudy's was made in blood in the murder room, all we know for certain is that if he wore gloves her removed them before stabbing Meredith or shortly afterwards.

Wiping one's backside in gloves is very awkward, because there's no tactile feedback and the paper tends to slip, so it's possible he removed the gloves to wipe himself and did not put them back on when Meredith came home and caught him on the loo. Another possibility is that he found it impossible to forcibly disrobe Meredith with gloves on and removed them to facilitate sexually assaulting her.

I see no reason to assume that if he wore gloves he removed them before Meredith got home, since so far as I am aware there is no DNA or fingerprint evidence indicative of him doing things with his bare hands prior to that point.

Do you have a cite for that or is it a matter of personal experience?
 
Whereas the Massei/Mignini narrative has Raffaele and Amanda murdering Meredith while in the nude, since all of their clothes were accounted for and none showed any signs of having been worn during a bloody murder.

For someone who is such a persistent pontificator and perpetual postulant of presenting here solely scientific based, evidence oriented arguments I find that statement not only out of place and a self contradiction, but a very cavernous 'stretch'; to put it mildly.

Since the only 'evidence' your argument presents is your undocumented and impossible to be known with certainty by any human save for the perpetrators, declarations about clothes actually worn while they murdered Meredith and clothes found .....

Your *opinion* of what the Massei narrative has Amanda doing in this instance is about as much 'evidence based' as Bruce Fisher's brazen agenda directed blatantly biased "summaries" of the Appeals documents were.
 
Last edited:
Virtually ALL windows in Europe open inward!

Only American windows slide up/down.

The go on the vertical plane, like shutters would?

I used to have ones that pushed outwards on a horizontal plane. Lord did I hate those, tough to get a breeze as they wouldn't go much more than 45 degrees. I have the nice up/down ones now.

What is the benefit to windows that go in? Or for that matter two shutters. I can't think of many newer American homes that have shutters for anything but decoration.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom