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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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First of all, do we have any info they were open? Could you share your sources on this? I think it's more probable they all were closed, considering that all of the girls were out that night.
If the shutters were closed, it makes the Filomena's shutters (the swelled ones that didn't close fully) an obvious target. After all Rudy couldn't open any fully closed shutters without forcing them, and he needed them open to throw the rock in.
Secondly, the balcony is certainly exposed not only to the road, but to every flat above Nara's windows :) IIRC you even argued there is a line of sight from Nara's windows to the balcony door. You also argued it's direction is compatible (facing) with the neighbouring buildings.
I think it's also brightly lit by every passing car. (..)

I can only suggest you to stop kidding and face seriosuly aspects of real life.
Yes there are testimonies the terrace shutters were open.
Your claim about a logical point of entry on the front is ridiculous, based on assertions that are obviously self discredited and I find it a waste of time to discuss them at this time in the night.
One point to note, is you said you base all your certainity on the fact the burglary is not staged. So you should be sure the burglary is not staged. I don't know how you can be sure. I don't believe you had been convinced by the argument you are submitting now. Why do you believe it is not staged?
If you are not convinced the terrace is not a good point of entry and the front second store window is logic, you are allowed to your belief, but no judge will share it with you.
Btw: the balcony is also in the dark, the front window is illuminated by street lamps and under the sight of many windows and cars from the road and the parking lot. Being on a terrace is not something that attracts attention as hanging on a window, but if you don't see this, that's not my problem.
 
In the place of a "prank" I consider the possibility of other situations, like something related to the downstairs apartment. Somebody did enter this apartment, wounded a cat, smeared a light interruptor with the cat's blood.


Now I have a reason to hate Machiavelli as a person that would think of wounding a cat as a prank:mad:


As I recall though, the cat was wounded before the weekend and Meredith had the key explicitly to tend to the cat. Shifting this to a wounding on the night of the murder would necessitate implicating the boys downstairs in the coverup.
 
Mary
This link you showed is very interesting.....

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/431257_knox06.html

Andrea Vogt also states that Guilia Bongiorno is hospitalised in Rome owing to her pregnancy and so will not be attending the hearing on 11 Dec.
She discusses a 10 page letter from Alessi to his lawyer, and Aviello's interview.
 
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Meanwhile, in another universe, Altermachiavelli writes:

I can only suggest you to stop kidding and face seriosuly aspects of real life.
Yes there are testimonies Filomena's shutter was cracked open and could not be pulled tight due to the swelling of the wood.
Your claim about a logical point of entry on the terrace is ridiculous, based on assertions that are obviously self discredited and I find it a waste of time to discuss them at this time in the night.
 
Mary
This link you showed is very interesting.....

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/431257_knox06.html

Andrea Vogt also states that Guilia Bongiorno is hospitalised in Rome owing to her pregnancy and so will not be attending the hearing on 11 Dec.
She discusses a 10 page letter from Alessi to his lawyer, and Aviello's interview.


Yes, Magister; Andrea Vogt actually goes so far as to say, "No police labs in Italy had certification at the time since no national standards existed."

There is other helpful information in there, too, if you can make your way past the stuff about the mafia, the child-killer and the lawyer whose screensaver is a large picture of Jesus with outstretched arms, all of which are obviously there to make the case for Amanda's appeal appear weaker than it actually is.
 
Nor do I, Charlie - it would be a very uncommon condition in an otherwise healthy 20 year old.

You and "Charlie" agree that you "don't think" Meredith had a particular medical condition.

This is what is now passing for "evidence-based argument"?!

On what factual grounds are your "thoughts" (a/k/a "suppositions") based (other than your Google-powered/ lay understanding of medical conditions and their incidence)?
 
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Return of the LONEWOLF

That's not bad, Fine. I can find some holes, though. [1] If Rudy were in the bathroom when Amanda got home, he would leave as soon as she got in the shower, not hide in Filomena's room waiting for her to go back out, because he would have no way of knowing she was going back out.

[2] It's unlikely Rudy knew he had left a bloody footprint on the bathmat. If he knew it, he probably would have taken the bathmat with him when he left, not come back later for a clean-up. The whole idea of coming back is not sensible -- too dangerous.

As for staging a burglary, [3] he could do that just as well by throwing a rock through the window from outside (there is still controversy about the so-called mess in Filomena's room).

[4] If Amanda remembered Filomena's door as closed, and came back to find it open, she would have mentioned that in her accounts.
[5] The fact that the toilet seems to be of a low water variety leaves open the possibility that the feces were stuck to the back of the bowl for several hours before slipping down into the water.

______________

[1] Okay, maybe Rudy left briefly when Amanda came, but when he saw her leave he came back. Fine with me.

[2] I don't think he was concerned about the bathmat, instead, the bloody footprints on the floor, which would have been more crisp impressions, and so more identifiable.

[3] Well, it looks to me like the rock was thrown through the window, from outside, in creating the staging. Otherwise---whether a genuine breakin or simulated by the lovebirds from within---there's no explanation for why the shutters were found open.

[4] Judging from Raffaele's Diary, when the lovebirds arrived, Amanda went to put the mop and bucket in the closet, and it was Raffaele who was first to notice Filomena's door open. Since she knew the door was closed---when she had left an hour earlier---she just assumed that the door had been opened by Raffaele. To think otherwise would be to think someone had been in the house during her absence. Unthinkable to her at that time. (Maybe at this time too.)

[5] Nope. If, say, Rudy had been "surprised" the prior night at 9:00 pm, and Amanda had left from her first visit to the cottage at 11:00 am, that would be a minimum of fourteen hours before the feces slipped lower into the toilet bowl. The feces slipped between 11:00 am and 1:00 pm. (So, what, 2% chance of that happening?) Far more likely this happened a few minutes---maybe ten or twenty--- after Rudy left his feces.

And just how dangerous would it be for Rudy to return? How dangerous was it for him not to return? He might have surmised from what he saw the prior night that all residents---upstairs and downstairs---would be gone for the long holiday weekend. And if it weren't for Amanda, he would have been right. Maybe Rudy cleaned up and staged the burglary the morning after the murder, but had come to the cottage for a more immediate purpose. Maybe it was only til morning that he discovered he'd lost his wallet, or his knife. In that case,....wouldn't you return?

///
 
I think the forced entry was real. The window would have been easy. I posted a video recently that showed a couple of kids performing far more difficult climbing feats.

Rudy had no reason to stage the crime scene, and he would not come back to do so in the morning but first use the toilet.

Amanda may have done something to change the pressure in the waste pipe, like flushing the other toilet.

The discrepancy over Filomena's door is because they remembered it differently. Research has shown that eyewitness accounts are all over the map, and some of that research has been cited in this thread.
 
When you have made claims based on your unsupported word before, all too often we have cited sources that showed that you were lying, or were mistaken and had not checked your facts.

"Lying" or "mistaken" - Which one explains YOUR failure to cite ANY literature or personal expertise in support of your claims about the displacement of alimentary matter in the human intestine during autopsy?
 
You are basing a whole new theory on the single factor the the crap slid down into the bowl after Amanda first spotted it. Maybe we should analyze this factor further before going off into imagination land.

What were the actual statements made about the condition of the feces in the toilet and the apparent changes?

Here is what someone would see if they went into the bathroom as far as the bidet perhaps to investigate the bad smell:
picture.php


But if on a subsequent visit they only walked forward as far as the sink, this is what they would see:
picture.php


I suspect that it is only Raffaele's conjecture that the feces slid down based on Amanda not seeing it on the subsequent visit and not the conclusion of a scientific finding of fact.


ETA: I do appreciate Fine's attempt at critical analysis and looking for alternative scenarios that fit the known facts.
 
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You and "Charlie" agree that you "don't think" Meredith had a particular medical condition.

This is what is now passing for "evidence-based argument"?!

On what factual grounds are your "thoughts" (a/k/a "suppositions") based (other than your Google-powered/ lay understanding of medical conditions and their incidence)?

Knowing that a condition such as gastroparesis would have easily explained the whole later TOD proposed by the prosecution, don't you think such a condition would have been documented in the Massei report, or noted during the trial? Or do you think Meredith had such an unusual condition and no one thought to mention it ever. I would say since there's no mention of any sort of digestive system irregularity mentioned anywhere by anyone during the trial or judge's report that it's safe to say there's no proof that Meredith had any such thing. This would be akin to arguing that Rudy could never have climbed up to the window because possibly he had a torn ACL. Inventing medical conditions that are heretofore unreported is completely pointless.
 
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But you are not a convicted goat molester. You are someone who made a series of illogical points of reasoning in this very same debate. You are mistaken if you take my personal attack as an argument of authority. To me it is a point of logic. On the basis of your logical processes and your cognitive modus operandi, I consider debate with you is not an interesting goal.

Yet oddly enough you haven't been able to satisfactorily attack any of my conclusions, let alone present a coherent narrative of the crime that explains the facts. You do realise, I hope, that hiding in the PMF forums and congratulating each other on how you are winning an argument doesn't actually win any arguments? It is merely a psychological defence mechanism to shut out unwelcome reality.

On the contrary, your argument about "taking seriously" the poster (me) who doesn't "back up his claims with literature", was actually an argument of authority. What you consider skepticism, i consider it a concealed argument of authority: "I won't believe you unless you prove it, and I assert what you say is false unless you bring a literature". This is an argument about authority, although you may see it differently. You start from the premise that what I say is false

We can add to the long list of things you have misrepresented in the course of this discussion that you either do not understand or deliberately misrepresent what the "argument from authority" is. Or for that matter what "skepticism" is.

Skepticism means proportioning your beliefs to the best available evidence.

The argument from authority could perhaps better be described as the "argument from personal authority". I make no claims to personal authority beyond being scientifically literate, educated, rational and able to read a scientific paper.

Of course there would be a very real problem if it turned out that internet guilters were a self-selecting group of people who lacked those qualities. If that were the case it would not mean that I was necessarily right and that they were necessarily wrong (although that would sure be the way to bet), but it would mean that nobody on the pro-guilt side would have the intellectual chops to make a coherent, science-based, pro-guilt case on a forum like this.

That is a different problem to the argument from authority, however. It's a practical impediment to an intelligent discussion, not evidence either side is right or wrong.

I already said the scenario I am more favourable about sets the time of death between 22:00 and 22:30. This is the time of death I consider more likely.

Well, we can stop right there then. There is absolutely no positive evidence worth a damn for time of death that late, and there is reasonable medical certainty that Meredith died earlier than that based on the autopsy evidence.

Next time try to find a horse that can get over the first hurdle.

Not to mention that Curatolo claimed he saw them at this time and so either they can be in two places at once, or Curatolo is unreliable in which case there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever to challenge their alibi with.

I do not consider an interaction on Sollecito's computer at 21:26 as an alibi. I do not even consider Sollecito's apartment and the via della Pergola cottage as actually two separate and unrelated locations. Sollecito's apartment is only 380 meters distant from the cottage front door (I am talking of the cottage door, not the cottage gate). This means, in a very slow relaxed walk (80 meters/minute = 2.9 mph) it would take 4minutes 45 seconds to walk from one place to the other. A bit hasty walk (110 meters/minute = 4.3 mph) would take 3 minutes 25 seconds.

Yet there has to be a reason why they left Raffaele's house, if indeed they did so. There has to be a reason why they opened a Naruto file at 21:26, and for that matter a reason why they claimed that they were watching the movie Stardust at home that night before they knew that the police had destroyed that evidence. (One might also wonder if there was a reason why the police destroyed that evidence after they knew it was Raffaele and Amanda's alibi).

You can make up vague, cloudy theories about an unspecified "prank" at an unspecified time for unspecified reasons, but it looks to me that your theory is a flag of convenience. You hold it as an article of religious faith that Amanda and Raffaele murdered Meredith, and your theory is just "they did it in whatever time and fashion has not yet been proven to be impossible". We prove that 23:30 is absurd, you retreat to 22:00 and try to defend that, and so on. The problem with this methodology is exactly the same as that the God of the Gaps has: not only is it unfalsifiable and hence uninteresting, but it deflates over time like a balloon with the knot untied until almost nothing is left. It's a sort of Guilt of the Gaps, in fact.

On the specific point of ToD, I don't think this is satisfactorily proven to be false. I disagree, for example, on the simplistic dismissal of Lalli's doubts about the ligatures of duodenum in autopsy and the sure claims by the defence (and yourself) that all stomach cotent was for sure still all in the stomach. I don't think you could make a definitive statement on ligatures of all handles just on heresay. I disagree on claims of no alcohol consumption. And so on, only examples of my thoughts on this point. I don't see any need to consider the Massei ToD as the correct one, but I do not see any ground to assert it was disproven, just on the basis of reading defence documents and selecting gastroenterology studies.

"Selecting"? Not this dishonest tripe again?

The articles we have cited for you were not cherry-picked to support a predefined conclusion. You and every other pro-guilt speaker have comprehensively failed to find a single paper showing evidence for any other conclusion than the one we have established: That Meredith almost certainly died very shortly after she arrived home. The scientific literature is unanimous on this point.

Lalli expressed no doubts about the competence of his autopsy, as far as I am aware. I think you are misstating the facts again - Ronchi made up a very tenuous fairy story that said that if Lalli had botched the autopsy by not using ligatures then that could in theory reconcile the stomach contents evidence with the prosecution's time of death. (The obvious corollary, that the prosecution's expert implicitly establishes that in the absence of such a miraculous lapse on Lalli's part the prosecution's time of death cannot be correct, is one that pro-guilt speakers seem to have great difficulty absorbing).

Lalli, of course, did not botch the autopsy. Massei just decided that he could ignore all the expert testimony and jam together his own hybrid fairy story about "incorrectly tied ligatures", based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, as a license to ignore the stomach contents evidence and embrace a 23:30 time of death.
 
Rudy said he went to see his friends after the murder, while his friends denied seeing him. According to Frank, his upcoming appeal argues that his friends were lying; his lawyers hired a female spy to go undercover and talk to them, and they admitted they saw Rudy after the murder.



I suppose it does make more sense that if Rudy were looking for an alibi, he'd go and see people who knew him, rather than randomly turning up in a club somewhere.

I hope that develops into something good. I wonder why they lied (if they did of course)?
 
I think the forced entry was real. The window would have been easy. I posted a video recently that showed a couple of kids performing far more difficult climbing feats.
.

Yet no DNA from Rudy Guede in Filomena's bedroom...mmmmmmmmm.

A drop of Meredith's blood was found in Filomena's bedroom, via LUMINOL, correct?

The DNA of another individual was found in that drop, no?

Who was that individual?

Filomena? NO. (Yet it was her private room.)

Laura? NO. (So much for the DNA of roommates lying anywhere and everywhere.)

Rudy? NO. (Yet he was supposedly the 'lone wolf' killer.)

It belonged to Amanda Knox.

Damning.

PS Do you have any videos of RUDY doing "Parkour"???

How about a semi-pro basketball team forgoing the usual gym workout for some Parkour?

Didn't think so.

Are you honestly under the impression that ANY 20-something on a basketball team is a natural for the acrobatic feats of "Parkour"?!

That's beyond absurd.
 
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Not to nitpick, but assuming it is accepted that the file access of Naruto was down to human activity, this does not surely prove that they watched it.

No, but in the absence of any credible positive evidence whatsoever to challenge their alibi, and in the absence of any credible reason why they might have abandoned Naruto, headed to Amanda's together, high-fived Rudy as they walked through the door and stabbed Meredith to death immediately afterwards (even a 21:30 time of death is improbably late) I think that their claim to have been at home watching it is a strong one.

I think it gains additional weight from the fact that they claimed watching Stardust as their alibi for later that night before the police destroyed that evidence.

While it would be fun to completely extinguish The Guilt of the Gaps theory, and prove beyond all doubt that it is absolutely impossible that Amanda and/or Raffaele murdered Meredith, I don't think we'll ever quite do it. The seriously deranged guilters will always be able to find a six or seven minute window where they can pretend to believe that Amanda grabbed a kitchen knife, ran down the street with it, burst into her house, high-fived Rudy, stabbed Meredith to death and than ran home again.

However if we've got to the stage where you have to push the time of death as improbably late as you possibly can, then postulate Amanda and Raffaele pitching in to rape and murder Meredith as soon as they get through the door (with no preparatory drug-fuelled sex orgy as fantasised by Mignini), I think we can say with great confidence that reasonable doubt has been established about their guilt.
 
Yet no DNA from Rudy Guede in Filomena's bedroom...mmmmmmmmm.

And none of Rudy's DNA was found in the hallway leading to the front door which we know he walked through. Does that mean he didn't walk through there?


PS Do you have any videos of RUDY doing "Parkour"???

How about a semi-pro basketball team forgoing the usual gym workout for some Parkour?

Didn't think so.

Are you honestly under the impression that ANY 20-something on a basketball team is a natural for the acrobatic feats of "Parkour"?!

That's beyond absurd.

While I agree that showing videos of others doing parkour doesn't help the notion that Rudy could climb the wall, how many times does it have to be said that the scaling of the wall was never something agreed on by the court as something that Rudy was incapable of. Frankly I'm baffled why this is continuously contested.
 
Greeting Halides1,
I have been patiently waiting for any of the "colpevolisti" to ask their own doctors this and then come onto here, a neutral forum, and publicly prove LondonJohn, Kevin Lowe or yourself wrong...

Come on Stilicho, Machiavelli, Fine, Treehorn, Alt-F4, Odeed, Solange305, CapeAladin, Platonov, Pilot Padron, Fulcanelli, and whomever else I have forgotten:
Just ask your doctor.

But I am still waiting for that to happen.
And I sometimes wonder why?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL
I think that anyone whose physician is a forensic pathologist is in no condition to post.
 
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I think the forced entry was real. [1] The window would have been easy. I posted a video recently that showed a couple of kids performing far more difficult climbing feats.
Rudy had no reason to stage the crime scene, and he would not come back to do so in the morning but first use the toilet.

Amanda may have done something to change the pressure in the waste pipe, like flushing the other toilet.

[2] The discrepancy over Filomena's door is because they remembered it differently. Research has shown that eyewitness accounts are all over the map, and some of that research has been cited in this thread.
____________________

[1] Yeah, Charlie, I watched the videos. Thanks. None of the kids ever climbed onto a ledge of shallow depth, at armpit height, using only his arms. If you're looking for something comparable, see ROCK CLIMBING on YouTube where overhangs are climbed, but it's only done by reaching to a handhold above the shallow ledge. And if the window would have been "easy," how to you account for the remark made by Thoughtful's husband, an experienced rock climber, over on PMF last summer, when---in seeing the wall first hand---said climbing it would be virtually impossible? Or was he lying too?

[2] And of course the lovebirds remembered the status of Filomena door differently. I've explained why. Here's Raffaele's recollection from his Diary:

"As soon as we arrived inside the house, I left the mop in the entrance and I went towards
the other rooms so I could see what the hell had happened. I remember those moments well because I was agitated and alarmed. I think I saw Amanda take the mop bucket and
carry it to another room . The first thing I noticed was that Filomena’s room had the door wide open."

Wide open. The first thing he noticed. Do you think Raffaele was hallucinating this??? It's Amanda who was wrong ---and understandably wrong---because she'd seen the door closed when she walked past it in exiting the cottage an hour earlier, and could only presume that Raffaele had opened it while she put away the mop. Someone had been in the house. Amanda had sensed it too, but the cops dissuaded her....for the wrong reason! Perhaps, unconsciously, she'd noted that there was no key ring hanging inside the front door where any one of the residents would have hung her key when entering.

In a LONEWOLF scenario, it's easier to believe Rudy staging the burglary than Rudy scaling the wall.

__________________________
Another famous wall: Eiger, North Wall. Since 1935, at least sixty-four climbers have died attempting the north face, earning it the German nickname Mordwand, literally "Murder Wall".

///
 
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Greeting Halides1,
I have been patiently waiting for any of the "colpevolisti" to ask their own doctors this and then come onto here, a neutral forum, and publicly prove LondonJohn, Kevin Lowe or yourself wrong...

Come on Stilicho, Machiavelli, Fine, Treehorn, Alt-F4, Odeed, Solange305, CapeAladin, Platonov, Pilot Padron, Fulcanelli, and whomever else I have forgotten:
Just ask your doctor.

But I am still waiting for that to happen.
And I sometimes wonder why?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

That's not how burden of proof works. I don't get to scrape something off the internet, post it, and demand expert analysis of my "work".

The problem here, RWVBWL, is that the forensic pathologists who had access to the autopsy results came up with a time of death (based only on gastric emptying) of somewhere between 21:30 and 22:30. That's quoted in the Massei Report and there are several references there to the primary documentation (ie the expert testimony, their methodology, the originals of the autopsy report) as well as cross examination. I see little issue with the results presented by Prof Introna in court. He provided a reasonable interpretation of the data as it was presented by the medical examiner and he was cross examined by the lawyers.

So, in answer to your question, I don't need a general practitioner (who is no expert) to advise you that your arithmetic is wrong. I have Prof Introna explaining it already.
 
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