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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I wonder whether studies done on subjects under normal conditions are a good guide. Doesn't fight-or-flight inhibit digestion? Not that it matters I suppose if the TOD can't be pushed much past their last alibi, but still...
 
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You have lost this argument Alt+F4 when you are in a hole stop digging.This issue of TOD proves that by accepting a TOD of 11.45 the trial of first instance had more in common with kangaroo court than a fair triall

I never said anything about a time of death of 11:45 being right or wrong. My point is that John's links to those two abstracts don't prove his point. Neither mention what the test meal was.
 
There was no mention of an egg sandwich on the link you posted. Could you post the one that mentions the test meals? Thanks.

It's not mentioned in the abstract, but it's within an appendix to the main paper. I don't have a subscription myself, but accessed it through another gastro research fellow with whom I've been acting as a research subject myself. The next time I see him, I will try to cut and paste the entire paper to a memory stick, then post it on here if required.
 
I wonder whether studies done on subjects under normal conditions are a good guide. Doesn't fight-or-flight inhibit digestion? Not that it matters I suppose if the TOD can't be pushed much past their last alibi, but still...

I was thinking the same thing too. It's unscientific to compare a murder victim (who may have lingered before dying) with healthy individuals under normal conditions.

platonov makes a good point too. The abstracts cite work done under experimental conditions (time, food weight, specific content), which can't be compared to Meredith's case. I'm sure her friends don't know exactly how many ounces she ate and exactly how long it took her to eat. It was friends hanging out, watching TV, not a science lab.
 
I wonder whether studies done on subjects under normal conditions are a good guide. Doesn't fight-or-flight inhibit digestion? Not that it matters I suppose if the TOD can't be pushed much past their last alibi, but still...

You'd be right - extreme terror or shock can greatly inhibit digestion function, almost to the point of complete shut-down, and impending death will also stop the digestion process. But in this case we know that Meredith was in a relaxed sedentary environment for at least two hours after her meal - the ideal conditions for optimum digestion. And there's no evidence that she travelled back to the cottage at anything more than a normal walking pace. So, up to 9pm - 2.5 hours after she started her pizza meal - her digestive system would have been functioning entirely normally.

As you've pointed out, even if one supposes that Meredith were subjected to so much mortal fear (and continuously so) that her digestion function completely ground to a halt, this mortal fear must have had to have started by 10pm at the very latest, and almost certainly before 9.30. This would of course also mean that the attack itself would have had to have started at or before this time, so you quickly get back to the same time problem but via a different route. Although, as I pointed out a bit upthread, there's a case to be made (however wildly improbable) that, say, Guede (or even a different person altogether) confronted Meredith at 9.30, and subjected her to mortal terror continuously for a couple of hours until Knox and Sollecito turned up to help deliver the fatal wounds...
 
It's not mentioned in the abstract, but it's within an appendix to the main paper. I don't have a subscription myself, but accessed it through another gastro research fellow with whom I've been acting as a research subject myself. The next time I see him, I will try to cut and paste the entire paper to a memory stick, then post it on here if required.

Thank you and maybe you could also ask him how milk and an egg sandwhich compares with pizza (I'm thinking about the cheese) and apple pie.
 
Presumably going for a walk will have an impact on digestion times as well. No idea in which direction.
 
Presumably going for a walk will have an impact on digestion times as well. No idea in which direction.

Also a good point. Did the test subjects walk around? I'd also think the temperature during Meredith's walk would be a factor. It was quite cold that night, yes?
 
Ah, but what did he tie it off with? Camembert, perhaps? Play-dough? A wisp of cobweb? Can we rule these possibilities out? Treehorn will no doubt keep asking the tough questions on this important issue.

"I want my two dollars!!!"

That paperboy never got it, come to think of it. Didn't he end up going off a cliff?

Is it just a coincidence that the defense docs are more in line with the work done here on ToD?

Could it be science?

Nevermind, you forgot the P(lag)--the allowance for the difference in biology in Perugia, Italy. That's about two hours to four hours you must add or subtract so it is more convenient to convict whoever the Perugian police decide they want to throw in jail.

Here's something I came across a while back and wondered about. I'm sure it was brought up long ago, but I just want to know how long does it take to do an autopsy? Here's a story dated the 12th of November, 2007, and they still haven't decided upon a time of death and they're thinking maybe 12-2 AM so they can bust poor Patrick for it:

"Kercher's body was flown to Heathrow from Rome yesterday despite a last-minute attempt by lawyers for Lumumba to hold the body in Italy for a new post-mortem examination because of confusion over the timing of Kercher's death. Police pathologists had first said that she died between midnight and 2 a.m. A man has told police that he heard "raised voices" when passing the cottage about 2 a.m.

If Kercher died earlier, however, police suspect that Lumumba could have committed the crime and still made it back to the bar, where the first receipt he printed out is timed at 10:29 p.m. The walk from the cottage to the bar takes about ten minutes. Traces of Lumumba's mobile phone place him at 8:38 p.m. in an area that does not cover his bar, but does include the cottage, police say."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,310637,00.html#ixzz17HKZr1eI
 
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I do not wish to judge Mr. Kercher, but I do not condemn those who do, some of whom criticized him for writing what he did. However, I see little reason to exempt him from derision and not do the same for Edda Mellas, etc. Mrs. Mellas has been the subject of much unfair scorn and (at least recently) the subject of vulgar name-calling on a moderated discussion forum elsewhere. Name calling goes well beyond anything justifiable, as far as I am concerned.

Personally I think Edda Mellas should do whatever she legally can to get Amanda home (even if she's guilty). It's a mother thing. With that said I can't understand the logic behind the whole PR push. All it's done is piss off the Italians and they hold all the cards. I think it's gonna backfire in the appeal. Look what happened to Lori Berenson.

Now today poor Edda has to read this about the Lifetime movie:

Dornhelm (the director) said: "The film will tell the psychological journey that leads to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to kill Meredith Kercher. We have had a lot of enquiries about the film but none from Italy where the murder took place.

If the Knox/Mellas family had just layed low and delt with the Italians on their own terms they would have gotten a much better outcome than 26 years in prison....and maybe life.
 
Sorry, that won't do. What were the meals in abstracts you cited? If you don't know, then it invalidates those experiments as having any comparison to Meredith's stomach contents.

The Infrared spectrometry based 13C-octanoic acid breath test in measuring human solid gastric emptying paper says the following about their test meal:

"Before measurement, the subjects consumed a standard test meal consisting of an egg yolk and two egg whites. The yolk was doped with 100 mg of 99%13C-octanoic acid (Cambridge Isotope Laboratories, Andover, MA, USA) and the egg whites were mixed with a radiopharmaceutical, 1 mCi 99mTc-phytate (Daiichi Radioisotope Laboratories, Tokyo, Japan). The egg yolk and egg whites were homogenized separately, then added together and cooked by microwave. The egg was ingested with two slices of white bread coated with 7 g of margarine and 8 g of grape jelly, followed by 150 mL water. The total kilojoules of this test meal were 1088".

So what exactly about this "invalidates it as having any comparison" to Meredith's last meal, and how do you know this?

You said, "Had Meredith eaten a 700g steak, with a large baked potato and a huge pile of creamed spinach, all washed down with half a bottle of red wine, I'd agree with your assertion." So you agree that the content of the food plays a role in the time for gastric emptying, then you cite two papers that don't mention the content of the food in the abstracts.

Don't you remember? This exact issue has been dealt with by sources previously cited, which went in to the variations in t(lag) caused by different kinds and energy densities of food.

Really all you are doing here is reverting to the hilariously silly argument I characterised much earlier as "Since you've proved that the victim was murdered by someone over 190cm tall, it could as easily have been a four meter tall man as a two meter tall man". Sorry, four meter tall people still don't exist.

You can complain as much as you like about the fact that the only people whose height we measured were not wearing the exact same shoes as the killer, and did not have the exact same hairstyle of the killer, and argue that the test subjects were not walking on tippy-toes and the killer might have walked on tippy-toes, but if you add all of these spurious complaints together you're still not going to get a 4m tall killer or a t(lag) of five hours in a normal, healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza.

Since you have done so much research, then you would know that the contents of stomach were recorded as 500 cc which is 500 ml, but this would only be 500g if it was pure water, but 500 cc would be 250g of flour for example, so you would need to know how much Meredith ate and what it consisted of before it was digested.

No. You don't need to know that. Well, it would be nice, just as it would be nice to know the length of the killer's legs, but whatever the hell that measurement turns out to be the killer is not going to be four meters tall and t(lag) is not going to be five hours for a normal, healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza.

You should also know that the size of the meal has an effect on the lag phase by a large margin according to studies, so saying "between 200g and 400g" is not precise.

You'll find that 200g meals do not have a five hour t(lag) time for normal, healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza, and nor do 400g meals.

By the same token, the killer wasn't four meters tall whether he was a Massai or a pygmy.
 
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Since you have done so much research, then you would know that the contents of stomach were recorded as 500 cc which is 500 ml, but this would only be 500g if it was pure water, but 500 cc would be 250g of flour for example, so you would need to know how much Meredith ate and what it consisted of before it was digested.

You should also know that the size of the meal has an effect on the lag phase by a large margin according to studies, so saying "between 200g and 400g" is not precise.

You have also cited an article which I do not remember you citing before, IIRC, but I have to ask what is wrong with http://www.ijp-online.com/article.a...e=4;spage=238;epage=240;aulast=Awasthi;type=0 which is from this post?

The contents of the stomach were in the form of a thick liquid, not low-density solids. I am of course fully aware of the relationship between volume, density and weight. I am also aware of what happens when solid food is reduced to a thick liquid paste. If you measure out 500ml of flour (which, as you say, is only around 250g by weight), then pour 250ml of water into the flour and mix it around, you'll end up with a thick paste which occupies just over 500ml but which weighs 500g. The contents of Meredith's stomach would have weighed more-or-less 500g, of which around 400-450g would have been from the weight of food she ate.

The study you cited is very interesting, and I hadn't read it before. It's not really statistically significant, only using 8 subjects and 32 studies in total, and measuring for four different variables ("small meal" and "large meal", seated and left lateral posture). But its findings for T(lag) are interesting anyhow: they state that the lag phase is actually shorter for a larger meal compared with the smaller meal, and the numbers quoted appear to be at odds with the adjoining graphs - the graph showing distal stomach volume over time (the distal stomach is the last portion of the stomach prior to the duodenum) clearly show mean T(lag) times in the region of 90-100 minutes (ie the highest point on the curve).
 
stomach contents and anesthesia

Shuttlt and others,

If the digestive process went on for a while after death, then it would just make a TOD of 11:30 that much more difficult to believe, IMO.

I don’t disagree that the type and size of the meal have an impact, but consider these guidelines from the providers of anesthesia: “By not eating solid food for at least 6 hours or drinking clear liquids for 2 hours prior to surgery, you decrease the risk of aspiration pneumonia and increase the safety of your anesthetic.” These guidelines were presumably written to encompass a wide range of circumstances. The problem is that the muscle which would ordinarily prevent regurgitation of food is relaxed during anesthesia. I have commented on this subject before, bu the link is new.
http://www.esa-anesthesia.com/page37/page37.html
 
"Before measurement, the subjects consumed a standard test meal consisting of an egg yolk and two egg whites. The yolk was doped with 100 mg of 99%13C-octanoic acid (Cambridge Isotope Laboratories, Andover, MA, USA) and the egg whites were mixed with a radiopharmaceutical, 1 mCi 99mTc-phytate (Daiichi Radioisotope Laboratories, Tokyo, Japan). The egg yolk and egg whites were homogenized separately, then added together and cooked by microwave. The egg was ingested with two slices of white bread coated with 7 g of margarine and 8 g of grape jelly, followed by 150 mL water. The total kilojoules of this test meal were 1088".

So what exactly about this "invalidates it as having any comparison" to Meredith's last meal, and how do you know this?

Please tell us the exact amount of grams Meredith ate.
Please tell us the exact amount of militers of water Meredith drank.
Please tell us how many kilojoules were in Meredith last meal, total.
Please us exactly how long it took Meredith to eat the pizza and apple pie.
Please tell us about the test subjects walking in the cold after eating, the same thing Meredith did that night.

You are making a hilariously silly argument trying to compare what we know about Meredith's last meal (and the circumstances surrounding it) with a scientific experiment conducted under very specific conditions.
 
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Interesting Daily Telegraph Article by Nick Pisa today

Mr Dornhelm, the director of the upcoming Film to be shown on American TV channel Lifetime, presently being filmed and starring Hayden Panterette had this to say:

"The film will tell the psychological journey that leads to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to kill Meredith Kercher"

Hmmmm.

Stimulates many conjectures, doesn't it?

At last per chance, all here will be able to see in full hour long detail yet another detailed 'theory' of how Meredith was horribly murdered by Amanda, Raffie, and Rudy.

Yet another answer for, the never ending perpetual personal challenge/query that always pops up *here*.
Whenever logic and simple common sense makes yet another 'scientific, evidence based' argument about innocence little more than regurgitated rubbish that has been disproven 20,000 posts ago, the come back childish challenge erupts.

You know the question about...."But you have not yet answered our request for *your* 'theory' of how blah blah happened"...therefore, of course Amanda is innocent and you are in error about everything you just said.

Ahhhh, yes, but of course, Mr Dornheim and his vast investment is undoubtedly just 'arguing from authority', or probably just another part of that nasty, vast, worldwide, guilt infested all encompassing conspiracy against Amanda and all other All American honor students (but not Raffie)

Or maybe we just need to do our usual parsing some of the words in that seemingly pretty unequivocal statement to *spin it to* show his true belief in innocence

Or maybe the quote is 'out of context', or 'internalised false', or 'misinformed', or 'mistaken' or 'confused', or just not 'the best truth he can remember'.

Or maybe Nick Pisa and the Daily Telegraph are just tabloid trash and not to be trusted about the quote.

Or maybe Mr Dornhelm is not privy to the scientific evidence based amateur napkin computed TOD dramatic diatribes posted here ad nauseam that makes the unanimous juror verdict completely invalid.

Or maybe---------please do not hesitate to fill in the blanks with the usual cut and paste PR provided talking points

Or maybe; please do not hesitate to tell us all (when convenient, but before you dare post anything else, of course) just why Mr Dornhelm with his impressive background and his almost unlimited research assistance would make such a statement.

Repeated for emphasis;

Mr Dornhelm said:"The film will tell the psychological journey that leads to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to kill Meredith Kercher"
 
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Shuttlt and others,

If the digestive process went on for a while after death, then it would just make a TOD of 11:30 that much more difficult to believe, IMO.
Certainly. But would it? She was dead and lying flat on the floor. Perhaps the muscles of the gut keep working, perhaps they don't. Without any blood circulating it would surely have to be anaerobic?
 
Also a good point. Did the test subjects walk around? I'd also think the temperature during Meredith's walk would be a factor. It was quite cold that night, yes?

Yes - I think there's testimony that Meredith sprinted home completely naked, stopping only to ensure that her skin temperature dropped to the ambient air temperature first. :rolleyes:

Meredith strolled home with her friend Sophie Purton. They left the friends' house at around 8.40-8.45pm. Which was already around two and a quarter hours after the start of the pizza meal. And during those two and a quarter hours, Meredith had been predominantly sitting (or maybe even lying down) watching a DVD with her friends and chatting.

Nobody's claiming that Meredith's circumstances (meal size and constituents, post-prandial activity) exactly mirror experimental conditions. But they are not significantly different in any regard, and this is why it's reasonable to apply the experimental findings with Meredith's situation. But even if we apply an extremely generous 25% correcting factor, it still becomes extremely unlikely that Meredith died any later than 10pm, and virtually impossible that she died any later than 10.30pm.
 
thanks

Mr Dornhelm said:"The film will tell the psychological journey that leads to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to kill Meredith Kercher"

Pilot padron,

Well that quite settles the issue then. Based on Mr. Dornhelm's movie, I am going to change my mind. Sollecito and Knox must have done it.;)
 
Please tell us the exact amount of grams Meredith ate.
Please tell us the exact amount of militers of water Meredith drank.
Please tell us how many kilojoules were in Meredith last meal, total.
Please us exactly how long it took Meredith to eat the pizza and apple pie.
Please tell us about the test subjects walking in the cold after eating, the same thing Meredith did that night.

You are making a hilariously silly argument trying to compare what we know about Meredith's last meal (and the circumstances surrounding it) with a scientific experiment conducted under very specific conditions.

Did someone just mention "hilariously silly arguments"? :D
 
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