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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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LondonJohn,

A very long time ago there was much excitement that Hillary Clinton would somehow get involved in the case after saying some more than somewhat pro-Knox things. We were assured that she was being kept informed. As you indicate, it would be diplomatically awkward if such a thing were ever to happen. Doubtless, if they really wanted to, Berlusconi could have been induced to make a little phonecall to the prosecutor. He's done it before.
 
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Raffaele_Sollecito_Appeal.pdf

Page 162.

Sollecito's appeal document argues that the ToD was "21.30-22.00", based on a proper correlation of the stomach/intestinal contents with the known time of Meredith's last pizza meal. I think that they've deliberately erred on the side of caution in going for 10pm as the upper timeframe, but I don't see why they haven't gone back as early as 9.15 or so. Either way, they argue that Meredith was dead by 10pm at the latest.

By the way, Sollecito's appeal also explicitly argues that the "intestinal slippage" hypothesis is rubbish, since the autopsy video clearly shows Lalli correctly tying off the duodenum.

Seems like Sollecito's defence team, at least, appears to subscribe to the same hypothesis put forward by me and Kevin (among others). I'm not surprised by this, since it's a medically-accurate hypothesis, so far as I'm able to tell. We shall see whether the appeal court accepts the hypothesis.


Confusion again London John :eek: - are those are the IIP 'summaries' which I brought to your attention * in our last exchange. ETA - No you have linked to the Italian original :) ??

I was asking for a link to the 'section' of the actual translated appeal docs which deal with this matter [which Rose Montague implied had been posted here and Kaosium seems to think he has read]

Seems like you are claiming to have translated or understood the original !


*

But lets see the translated appeal docs - ask CW or halides1 to provide them.
The 'summaries' on IIP, which admittedly are probably not trustworthy, have no such certainty on ToD.
Obviously the defence will go again for an early (perhaps earlier) ToD range but that's no guarantee it will be accepted.
And indeed without other evidence being overturned or produced it will make no difference.
 
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LondonJohn,

A very long time ago there was much excitement that Hillary Clinton would somehow get involved in the case after saying some more than somewhat pro-Knox things. We were assured that she was being kept informed. As you indicate, it would be diplomatically awkward if such a thing were ever to happen. Doubtless, if they really wanted to, Berlusconi could have been induced to make a little phonecall to the prosecutor. He's done it before.


As I understand it, Berlusconi has no power over the magistrates. In fact, they have taken him to court before. If Berlusconi had any control, Amanda would have been freed a long time ago, I think.
 
LondonJohn,

A very long time ago there was much excitement that Hillary Clinton would somehow get involved in the case after saying some more than somewhat pro-Knox things. We were assured that she was being kept informed. As you indicate, it would be diplomatically awkward if such a thing were ever to happen. Doubtless, if they really wanted to, Berlusconi could have been induced to make a little phonecall to the prosecutor. He's done it before.

Well true, but for Berlusconi to do so would be a constitutional breach of the separation of the executive and the judiciary - not that, as you say, that appears to have bothered him in the past. Besides, I have the feeling that Berlusconi has the more important matter of self-preservation on his mind at the moment - his political career is on the brink, thanks (ironically) in some part to the work of one Giuliana Bongiorno in opposition. He faces a no confidence vote in parliament on 14th December. If he's thrown out of office, he then potentially faces a number of serious criminal allegations. I doubt that pandering to Hilary Clinton is particularly high up on his agenda at the moment.
 
As I understand it, Berlusconi has no power over the magistrates. In fact, they have taken him to court before. If Berlusconi had any control, Amanda would have been freed a long time ago, I think.
He managed to get that belly dancer released with one phone call, and for what? Either it was because he simply felt sorry for her, or he liked the way she played Bunga Bunga.
 
That getting confused strengthens your point and the more the merrier, is obviously ********. You decide that you don't want to make distinction, because only this serves your mental bias. The "woman's shoeprint" (the result of Inspector's Boemia search) is not in response to any desperate need by the prosecution, in fact it is not needed and even considered by judges. The prosecution doesn't need anything like that.

Boemia, you say? Well Rinaldi signed it, didn't he? But no problem, the more the merrier as I said :) We can see an established trend of experts making innocent mistakes always in favor of the prosecution.

Actually the prosecution left out much bigger good evidence than the irrelevant wrong evidence they put in.
Now this is one bold claim! I'd love to see that secret evidence. Could it be the same evidence that Dear Leader on your home forum threatened to release :rolleyes:?

The "perspective correction" is a mistake for you who decide to believe Vinci, while you were unable to provide any argument to state it is wrong (your thought was a thick "how does a reduction of the tile size makes a longer foot?").
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Rinaldi botched perspective correction (on a tile he measured) and was sent home to do it again. That's a fact. Altough his intial measurement was too big his corrected measurements were even bigger and miraculously fitted exactly what prosecution needed. He was unable to explain how he did it, and you were unable, too. That's another fact.

But you stated series of plain round lies, accusations all false, invented and disproven, like the HIV "trick", an abitrary judgement of "incompetence", the pathetic claim of spread of "lies in the media".
These are the arguments that make your belief in Amanda's innocence.
Conjure away :)
What is entirely sufficient to make me believe AK and RS are innocent is that the break-in was not staged. But that's simple logic.

The Monster of Florence is a story of satanic cults and ritual murders.

I guess you don't know anything about Mignini's story as a prosecutor.
And the story of satanic cults and ritual murders is instead of ganuinely Florentine origin, was already renown since many years before Mignini was appointed in the Narducci case.
A group devoted to satanic cults and ritual murders actualy existed. The question is, whether Narducci was part of it or not. Whether people were involved in a policical covering of investigations, or not.

I'm fully aware that Mignini is not the author of that fantasy, he only bought it entirely. IIRC his contribution was only the laughable double corpse swap.
Everything in the MoF case points out to a single psycho serial killer.
The satanic cult ritual murders explanation is a projection of a specific midset. A mindset inclined both toward conspiracy theories and eager for a witch hunt. Always seeking hidden truths and interpreting every neutral fact as meaningful and covering sinister and mischievous deeds. What is worrying is that such a mindset could prevail in a modern first world country not only among simple people but also in some official circles and apparently among some well educated. I think AK and RS felt victim to such a CT and witch hunt thinking, too.



No, nothing immoral. In fact, he is still a prosecutor and in the same position, and recevied even no disciplinary note. And he has advanced to chief role.
He had positive explicit support by Superior Council of Magistrates (the organ with constitutional power over him) and notes of suport by the Associazione Nazionae Magistrati (the equivalent of a bar association).
That's worrying and embarrassing, too.


Your addressing Rinalfi is plain wrong. You adressing of prespective orrection as an arror is wrong. Your mention of HIV test tricks is false. All things you say are false.
I can indeed cite ecah of these and refute them, and I did it.
No, you didn't, but you're welcome.

Those who feed this media cult are criminals by Italian laws, not hyporcites.
You're painting a grim and worrying picture.
 
Well true, but for Berlusconi to do so would be a constitutional breach of the separation of the executive and the judiciary - not that, as you say, that appears to have bothered him in the past. Besides, I have the feeling that Berlusconi has the more important matter of self-preservation on his mind at the moment - his political career is on the brink, thanks (ironically) in some part to the work of one Giuliana Bongiorno in opposition. He faces a no confidence vote in parliament on 14th December. If he's thrown out of office, he then potentially faces a number of serious criminal allegations. I doubt that pandering to Hilary Clinton is particularly high up on his agenda at the moment.
Agreed. But a year or two ago he might have felt differently.
 
I would like to see the rule which allows Mignini to be free while awaiting his appeal applied to Amanda and Raffaele. When can you make this happen?

Oh please, Mignini is innocent! The Italians go around convicting innocent people all the time.
 
Confusion again London John :eek: - are those are the IIP 'summaries' which I brought to your attention in our last exchange. ETA - No you have linked to the Italian original ??

I'm was asking for a link to the translated 'section' of the actual translated appeal docs which deal with this matter.

The translation is that Sollecito's appeal argues the ToD to be between 9.30 and 10pm. From page 168:

The ascribing of 21:30 to 22:00 on 1st November 2007 as the time of death was confirmed by:
- the (autopsy) report, showing the quantity (500 cc. Approximately half a kilo of food) and quality (pizza with mozzarella and vegetables, apple pie), comprising food ingested during the last 1 .11.2007 meal, contained entirely within the stomach;
- the absence within Meredith's stomach of fragments of food other than those described by her friends as having been consumed during dinner on 1 .1.2007;
- the empty state of the duodenum, which (having been properly closed by ligation as seen in the autopsy video), which is indicative of the failure to initiate gastric emptying;
- The randomness of nature attributed to the plant fragments found in the third distal region of the oesophagus, never submitted for examination and testing, which can reasonably be attributed to a slice of apple.

Feel free to do your own translation to compare and contrast.....
 
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You may well now be completely and utterly lost.

But lets simplify matters - Post a LINK to the 'ToD ranges' section from the appeal docs [that you seem to think coincide with something or other].
Note - Not the earlier 'whining over bodyweight' section.

I have asked Rose Montague twice but he hasn't responded (with a link) while yet implying they have been posted here.

If you cant Post this Link then there is nothing further to say.

.

Here it is through Google translate, which I've tried to format a little better so it is more readable:

ETA: pg. 162-163
7. THE JUDGEMENT HAS GIVEN WRONG TIME OF DEATH
The Court, referring to the data tanatocronologici and assessments related to these, made by consultants and experts, showed that:

1. Despite Meredith's body has not been weighed, you have determined the weight of the girl using the formulas used to calculate the weight-form, may not have provided reliable results (p.179 above). Considering the age of 21 years and height m. 1.64, in fact, the formulas used to calculate the Lorenz weight Meredith indicated that weighed 57 kg, thus placing the time of death at 21:50. If they had been using the formulas of Broca, however, would indicate a weight of 60 kg, and then the time of death would be placed at 20:00;

2. using the same parameters implemented by Dr. Lalli including the body weight of 55 kg, placed the time of death at 22:50 instead of 23:00 hours is misplaced because both cases have a very high tolerance closer to 95%;

3. the Gaussian curve can be subject to change, if change is implemented some of the parameters, as pointed out by Prof. Norelli, who, on the type of coverage of the body, pointed out that the quilt that covered the body of Meredith could have as correction factor 1.2 to 1.3 but not 1.7, used by Dr. Lalli and properly considered by Prof. Introna;

163

4. "It 'true that later in the" application of the nomogram dr. Lally gave a value of 55 Kg. Whereas, however, when it assessed the body weight 50 kg dr. Lalli had before the same body and was particularly attentive to "the same observation as it was, is assuming that the measurement of weight does not deviate much from reality and taking into account the number and subsequently provided equal to 55 pounds, it is considered that the weight of Meredith can be shown to a good approximation in 52-53 pounds, weight, applying the nomogram, and taking into account the parameters set, including the correction factor "1.7, would like time of death with 95% tolerance midnight, midnight ten "(pp. 175-183 above)

With regard to point 1, you must make some comments, as expressed by the unreliability of the Court on the use of rules for calculating the weight is based on the evaluation of only two formulas: that of Lorenz, for a woman of 21 years, 164 cm high, the estimated weight of 57 kg and that of Broca, which for a woman of the same age and height, calculates a weight of 60 kg
The sentence, therefore, has entirely failed to report the results obtained from application of the formulas for calculating the weight, which provides a range between 55.4 - 60 kg with an average of about 57 Kg (p. 18 Consulting Professor Introna).

In fact, using the same parameters as implemented by Dr. Lalli information on the graph, you come to a time of death can be placed at 21:50.

In relation to paragraph 4, it should be noted that while the defense counsel Raffaele Sollecito used the media to the sum of the weight calculated on the basis of all the formulas in the literature to identify the weight of Meredith, the Court made an average between the weights measured "by eye" by dr. Lalli: (50 +55) / 2 = 52-53 kg, in order to place the time of death at midnight / midnight ten.

Faced with such assessments, it should be noted how the scientific information in the process have been scarcely considered.

In relation to paragraph 3, the Court has referred to some clarifications made by Prof. Norelli the correct one to use in the nomogram (1.2-1.3 instead of 1.7), not noticing that the use of the nomogram from the same was totally wrong because they have not been considered, nor the conditions for coverage of the corpse, let alone the site of position thereof.

The correction factor 1.7 is used, and the fact that the body was covered with a quilt, either because the same was lying partially on tiles and in part on the pillow, while the correction factor 1.2-1.3 was used exclusively on the that cover the body was made up of two covers (see caption of use for data input of the computer program attached to the advice of Dr. Henssege. Lalli and that of Prof. Introna).

I am not, neither few nor minor oversights and inaccuracies of the sentence on gastric contents.
In its ruling, in fact, it says "The Professor. Umani Ronchi ... also added that the stomach to empty it may take three, four, five hours, but also much more (ud. of 09/19/2009) "(p. 181 above).

The minutes of the hearing on 19.9.2009, it is noted that Prof. Umani Ronchi has indicated as long as is necessary for gastric emptying, 3:00 to 4:00 hours, rather than four to five hours (p. 3 ud. 09/19/2009: thus can be three or four hours, may be four, five, but in short, yes, three, four hours at least, is certain "), as reiterated by the same on page 38, where he stated that after three to four hours meal from the stomach should be empty (usually after three or four hours by "taking a meal the stomach should be empty, right? Expert: E" empty? "should").

In addition, the ruling states: "In addition to this must be considered also the presence of food residues in the small intestine and, therefore, as suggested by Prof. Umani Ronchi, one might think that such waste, were on the duodenum and

165

for an imperfect positioning of bindings, or for affixing a ligature occurred in the manner and timing that have not been able to prevent slippage of material from the duodenum to the small intestine. The figure: duodenum empty, it would not fully trusted "(p. 182 above).

Prof. Umani Ronchi, at the hearing on 19.4.2008 and 19.9.2009, has never reported on "an imperfect positioning of bindings" in the duodenum, but on failure to ligation of the duodenum by Dr.. Lalli at autopsy (p. 23 ud. 09/19/2009: "given that the slurs were not made, given that this can happen without the ligature slipping down and that a portion of food that had passed perhaps as early as duodenum, gravity had not already arrived, it was not quite up to the ileocecal valve).

Failure to allow ligation of the duodenum, in fact, to suggest to Professor Umani Ronchi that the gastric contents, at least in part, had slipped into the duodenum or the stomach contents, already passed into the duodenum, had slipped by gravity to the ileocecal valve after having walked 5 meters of small intestine. Hence, the Court relied on the unreliability of audits performed at autopsy on the objective fact that he had found the duodenum empty.

Based on this assumption, endorsed the decision, it could be said that if the duodenum was closed by ligation, the gastric contents is to faithfully recorded by Dr. Lalli and duodenum described as empty as is a fully trusted.
However, the Court during the hearing on 30.11.2009, was able to directly watch the video of the autopsy conducted by Dr. Lalli, who has correctly applied the ligature to close the duodenum, so as to prevent any slippage of gastric contents into the duodenum and the duodenum itself down, devoid of all credibility propounded erroneous considerations about the possible slippage of food from the stomach into the duodenum.

But the decision was entirely failed to consider that fact.


166

In the explanatory memorandum states that: "When the autopsy dr.Lalli has found in the esophagus a plant fragment, apparently a piece of fungus (Lalli report page 46). In relation to this data you may think that Meredith arrived at home around 21:00 accompanying this meal I have eaten something - then that would be the "last of his life - with a little" wine or beer (note: in reference to alcohol than 0.43 g / l measured the outcome of toxicological investigations carried out by Dr. Lalli) "(p. 182 above).

The description of the fungus carried by dr. Lalli at autopsy represents an unresolved problem to the state, that the Court could have clarified through the implementation of product analysis, which clearly could have been made on that piece food.

It is, in fact, a description given by Dr. Lalli in terms of plausibility and conditioned by the historical fact circumstantial, since the dr. Lalli aware, the days when he performed the autopsy, that Meredith Kercher had eaten a pizza with mushrooms (as stated in the autopsy film at 16:48).

This fragment was food, then, a finding by Dr.. Lalli and stored inside a closed tube with a blue cap, and has never been kept under review to identify with certainty the commodity nature, thus leaving open all possibilities: the presence of mushrooms in the sauce of the pizza (not supported by data Circumstantial, nor the presence of other similar fragments in stomach contents), the consummation of a second place after the dinner hour 21 (not guess by the presence of food fragments similar in gastric contents found inside the stomach of Kercher).

In this regard, then, the alleged recruitment of a glass of wine or beer, according to the Court, it came when Meredith came back in her home, you must highlight the contradiction in which the sentence has been dropped. On page 390 is written, in fact, that the victim had never taken alcohol.

167

The decision also stated that: "In relation to (...) the difficulty of restricting the range through the" use of the criterion of gastric emptying or the nomogram Henssge, it is believed that the "time of death should be indicated in the oscillation of time over which the various experts and advisers have also essentially agreed, namely from 20 to 30 hours before the first investigation on the body occurred at 00.50 hours of 11.03.2007 "(p. 182 above).

In light of the newly discovered oversights may show the following: only the experts have argued that the wider range in which to place the time of death is between 20 and 30 hours prior to 00:50 hours of 11/03/2007 while Dr. Lalli has indicated a range between 21.30 and 30 hours prior to 00:50 hours. Prof. Dr. Bacci and Livingstone have also placed the time of death in a range between 21:30 and 24:00 hours 1 .11.2007, ie at the time including the broader in that shown by the experts: between 20 and 30 hours prior to the 11/03/2007 00:50 (see p. 13 report Bacci-Livingstone), the second prosecution is that all consultants and experts, while acknowledging difficulties in interpretation of gastric contents for tanatocronologici, have identified the time of death to the type and amount of gastric contents and the composition of last meal known as follows:

- Dr. Lalli: a distance of no more than 2-3 hours after the last meal (see Errata 2/15/2008 gained during the oral and verbal shorthand p. 47 ud. 03/04/2009);

- Prof. Dr. Livingstone and Bacci: Remote 2-3/3-4 hours after the last meal that was consumed by 18 hours intermittently till about 20 .11 1, as demonstrated by the fact that the stomach and duodenum was filled with empty, indicating that gastric emptying was not yet begun (p. 64 ud. 04/04/2009; ud.18.4.09 p. 32);

- Prof. Umani Ronchi: a distance of 3-4 hours after eating (p. 30 ud. 09/19/2009).

168

Based on these details we can say that, while taking account of the wider range given by most consultants, the time of death would be placed at 22:50 of the first .11.2007.

You can, however, from a scientific point of view, to further restrict this range, using the stomach contents, for separate (500 cc.) And composition (pastry, cheese, vegetables, apple slices) and the comparison between the same last meal taken by the victim reported the texts: the time of death would thus be placed, according to a medical-legal criterion of maximum reliability (because of the unique and convergent views of the various consultants and experts), at a distance 2-3/3-4 hours from initiation of the last known meal (1 .11.2007 18:30-19:00 hours) and then at around 9:30 p.m. to 22:00.

The ascrivibilità 21:30 to 22:00 at the time of death was confirmed by 1 .11.2007:

- In correspondence, the quantity (500 cc. Approximately one pound of food) and quality (pizza with mozzarella and vegetables, apple pie), including food intake during the last 1 .11.2007 meal, and gastric contents the body;
- Meredith in the absence of fragments in the stomach of food other than those described by her friends the same as consumed during dinner 1 .1.2007;

- Empty into the duodenum, which (having been properly closed by ligation as seen in the movie autopsy), is indicative of the failure to initiate gastric emptying;

- The randomness of nature attributed to the plant fragments found in the distal esophagus III, never submitted for examination and merchandise that can reasonably be attributed to a slice of apple.
 
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Originally Posted by Kaosium

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!"


(good luck figuring that one out--you'd have to have seen the episode)


STtNG. This quote quite accurately describes this thread at times.


Didn't bother googling - after the earlier 'Euripides' confusion I assumed it was Star Trek :)

ETA My earlier ST response to you got moved to AAH (un)fortunately.
 
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By the way, Sollecito's appeal also explicitly argues that the "intestinal slippage" hypothesis is rubbish, since the autopsy video clearly shows Lalli correctly tying off the duodenum.

Ah, but what did he tie it off with? Camembert, perhaps? Play-dough? A wisp of cobweb? Can we rule these possibilities out? Treehorn will no doubt keep asking the tough questions on this important issue.
 
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Interesting, was she accused of murder?
No, but no less insane for him to have done it.

Depending on your theory of the crime, Knox and Sollecito were only convicted out of personal and political convenience. Doubtless, if this is the case, they could have been persuaded to perceive a higher political convenience. Would it have been so hard to lose/find a little more evidence, if that is what we believe happened?
 
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Mignini is a convicted criminal...

No he's not. Like Amanda and Raffaele he's entitled to an appeal.

It's even more obvious looking at the disgusting fanatical cult that have grown around the poor victim Meredith, the cult whose zealots claim that by spewing venom, stalking and sliming others they somehow defend Meredith or her memory.

When a creepy Italian politician writes a book about Meredith we can discuss disgusting fanaticism.
 
Ah, but what did he tie it off with? Camembert, perhaps? Play-dough? A wisp of cobweb? Can we rule these possibilities out? Treehorn will no doubt keep asking the tough questions on this important issue.

Ah, but because the autopsy video has never been seen in public, people such as you or I are apparently completely unqualified to discuss it - even though it's logical to assume that Sollecito's lawyers would not lie about an issue which is instantly checkable by both the prosecution and the court.

It's under the same rule which asserts that people such as you or I are completely unqualified to discuss the time of death in relation to the stomach/intestine contents* - apparently the ability to acquire and interpret knowledge outside of one's own immediate areas of expertise is regarded as either impossible or totally untrustworthy (or, as Pilot Padron is very fond of saying: "Google-de-gook"). The rule asserts that such medical knowledge is apparently only accessible and understandable by a few select super-beings, in the same way as the alchemists jealously guarded the secrets to making gold....

*or, for that matter, the elastic properties and sheer length of the adult human small intestine - only an elite subset of highly-ranked medical professionals are able to know (let alone understand) this information :)
 
When a creepy Italian politician writes a book about Meredith we can discuss disgusting fanaticism.

The funniest thing about this is you don't realize how funny it is. Hint: it has nothing to do with Rocco Girlanda.
 
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