Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

There was much discussion on it recently but no evidence was produced - other than the fact that the normal transport of Suspects in a high profile case took place.

Where I come from the police don't turn on their lights or sirens for any call that isn't urgent. It would be commented upon were they to do so simply to transport suspects from one place to another.

Perhaps Italy is different in this regard, but the only video evidence produced showing another transport of a suspect in Italy, by Machiavelli I believe, showed the police acting far more casually. This suggests to me that there was little 'normal' about the transport of Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick. The several further press reports indicating even more exuberant behavior after they got out of the range of the cameras is better sourced than any argument made in defense of their conviction I've seen in a long time.

Important to the appeal? Of course not, however I believe the behavior of the Perugian police on November sixth, 2007, is important to understanding what happened in this case.

 

[platonov]

Where I come from the police don't turn on their lights or sirens for any call that isn't urgent. It would be commented upon were they to do so simply to transport suspects from one place to another.

Perhaps Italy is different in this regard, but the only video evidence produced showing another transport of a suspect in Italy, by Machiavelli I believe, showed the police acting far more casually. This suggests to me that there was little 'normal' about the transport of Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick. The several further press reports indicating even more exuberant behavior after they got out of the range of the cameras is better sourced than any argument made in defense of their conviction I've seen in a long time.

Important to the appeal? Of course not, however I believe the behavior of the Perugian police on November sixth, 2007, is important to understanding what happened in this case.

I didn't get involved - given the source of the story, it was obviously nonsense and of little import either way except to show certain sources cant be trusted to 'report' even extraneous matters accurately.

Really Either your judgment, memory or research may be open to question here - possibly all 3 ?

 

[Katody Matrass]

To insinuate Mignini is corrupt is not offensive? To affirm police planted evidence is not offensive? To convey experts and judges are idiots is not offensive? To tell lies about the case and the evidence and make hypocrite statements on television is not offensive? To feed a media cult of Amanda Knox on the media is not offensive?

Always a good time to throw a moral outrage tantrum, isn't it?

Mignini is a convicted criminal who falsely accused 20 people of satanic cult murderous conspiracy. The police were repeatedly proven to be incompetent and immoral. Illegal interrogations, destroying evidence, sickening tricks with HIV-tests, releasing lies to the media to smear the defendants. Those are facts, not insinuations. Knowing that, it's only reasonable to be suspicious about anything they do.

And who says experts are idiots Rinaldi just made a mistake when counting the circles on the shoeprint. It's not a secret he made some other mistakes, too. They are even documented in Massei Motivation. Stefanoni just innocently forgot to disclose some data. She forgot about the TOO LOW results, or that she tested the prints for DNA and blood. Everyone can make mistakes, and who would blame the judges that must rely on such mistaken experts. Even prosecutors can sometimes forgot about some small detail or timing, and lead astray the judges and jury.
But pointing out factual mistakes is not insinuating idiocy. Oh no, they're not idiots, far from it.

You see, Machiavelli, I don't think you have the moral high ground here.

It's even more obvious looking at the disgusting fanatical cult that have grown around the poor victim Meredith, the cult whose zealots claim that by spewing venom, stalking and sliming others they somehow defend Meredith or her memory. Well I'm not sure that's how Meredith would wish to be defended nor is it something her family would welcome if they were aware of it.

 

[Kaosium]

I didn't get involved - given the source of the story, it was obviously nonsense and of little import either way except to show certain sources cant be trusted to 'report' even extraneous matters accurately.

There were numerous sources for that story. Some conflicted on details, others didn't include some information others did. I find this is common when reading different accounts of the same event. However one thing they were consistent on, which was back by the video evidence, was that the police were acting very much out of the ordinary. I do not necessarily think this condemns them, but I do believe it is helpful in understanding their mindset that day, which has direct bearing on the case.

What sources do you find especially trustworthy on the case?

ETA: Yes, I know one was the Mail! I even made a little joke about it at the time.

 

[platonov]

There were numerous sources for that story. Some conflicted on details, others didn't include some information others did. I find this is common when reading different accounts of the same event. However one thing they were consistent on, which was back by the video evidence, was that the police were acting very much out of the ordinary. I do not necessarily think this condemns them, but I do believe it is helpful in understanding their mindset that day, which has direct bearing on the case.

What sources do you find especially trustworthy on the case?

ETA: Yes, I know one was the Mail! I even made a little joke about it at the time.

If you manage a response to this post we may find out

How is the work on that list going ? You appear to be fixated on the 'interrogation' again.

 

[Kaosium]

One part of the TOD debate I have not seen discussed much here are the calculations regarding TOD based on body temperature. From Raffaele's appeal:



I would love to see a discussion on this by someone conversant with this and explained to me (being not an expert on this matter). The one question that bothers me is the estimate of Meredith's weight. Had she not seen a doctor recently? Every time I go to the doctor they weigh me, check my blood pressure and temperature. What was her weight as of her last doctor's visit?
Was this discussed in any of the reports?

Thank you Rose, I too would like someone to explain this to me in small words so I can understand. It seems to me they are disputing the time of death, but just what they're arguing is not clear to me. It seems possible to me they are saying there is a range from 8:00-9:50 that would be more accurate depending on different methods and Meredith's weight, but then it starts talking about a ten minute difference and I don't know why they even brought that up.

Since it is pretty much known that Meredith was alive at roughly 9:00 PM, that establishes a range from 9:00-9:50. Since it is my understanding that when ToDs are established officially they often use outside corroborating data to pin it down to make their case, I think the context provided by one of Kevin Lowe's posts I dug up recently suggests that a time of about 9:10 is reasonable.

Thus I still don't understand what Platonov is getting at. :-/

 

[platonov]

Thank you Rose, I too would like someone to explain this to me in small words so I can understand. It seems to me they are disputing the time of death, but just what they're arguing is not clear to me. It seems possible to me they are saying there is a range from 8:00-9:50 that would be more accurate depending on different methods and Meredith's weight, but then it starts talking about a ten minute difference and I don't know why they even brought that up.

Since it is pretty much known that Meredith was alive at roughly 9:00 PM, that establishes a range from 9:00-9:50. Since it is my understanding that when ToDs are established officially they often use outside corroborating data to pin it down to make their case, I think the context provided by one of Kevin Lowe's posts I dug up recently suggests that a time of about 9:10 is reasonable.

Thus I still don't understand what Platonov is getting at. :-/

As to the above RM post I already did here.

W.r.t. my last post if you cant follow the thread of your own posts then ToD's or the case in general will always be a mystery. In which case Kevin Lowes 'ideas' are as good as any
(unfortunately they have no bearing on the actual case)

 

[Kaosium]

If you manage a response to this post we may find out

How is the work on that list going ? You appear to be fixated on the 'interrogation' again.

If you do that again, Platonov, you might be able to apply for Randi's million. I had waited to reply on that subject after Rose's post in hopes of others clarifying just what was being disputed by the appeal, but the further posts on the subject didn't put it into Captain Dummy talk so I am still uncertain of what you are getting at, as the way I understand it nothing contradicts Kevin Lowe's or John's work on the subject like you seem to imply it does.

As for the interrogation, I've read those and thought about the legal strategies and must have come to a different conclusion than you did. However being as you won't tell me what you believe happened, I don't know where we disagree. It would be helpful to the debate if you would establish an argument on the subject.

 

[Kaosium]

As to the above RM post I already did here.

On my last post if you cant follow the thread of your own posts then ToD's or the case in general will always be a mystery.
In which case Kevin Lowes 'ideas' are as good as any

Oh, OK. You're just saying it doesn't matter as there is no alibi after 9:10 anyway? Wasn't there a file played at 9:26, 'Naruto' or somesuch?

 

[billyryan]

Meridith died within minutes of arriving home when she interupted a robbery in progress,Mignini and the Peruvian police force should face a major investigation as to how they ruined so many innocent lives

 

[platonov]

If you do that again, Platonov, you might be able to apply for Randi's million. I had waited to reply on that subject after Rose's post in hopes of others clarifying just what was being disputed by the appeal, but the further posts on the subject didn't put it into Captain Dummy talk so I am still uncertain of what you are getting at, as the way I understand it nothing contradicts Kevin Lowe's or John's work on the subject like you seem to imply it does.

As for the interrogation, I've read those and thought about the legal strategies and must have come to a different conclusion than you did. However being as you won't tell me what you believe happened, I don't know where we disagree. It would be helpful to the debate if you would establish an argument on the subject.

Just did (at 1.01)

 

[platonov]

Oh, OK. You're just saying it doesn't matter as there is no alibi after 9:10 anyway? Wasn't there a file played at 9:26, 'Naruto' or somesuch?

On the RM post - NO, that was a secondary point.

 

[platonov]

Meridith died within minutes of arriving home when she interupted a robbery in progress,Mignini and the Peruvian police force should face a major investigation as to how they ruined so many innocent lives

I'm not sure how this relates to my last reply to you so may I be permitted a less OT post - would you be happier if we called 'Dempsey's Circus' a Parade.

 

[RoseMontague]

Originally Posted by Mary_H View Post
Right. As Rose has pointed out, John Kercher is 100% convinced of Amanda's guilt, and he is just waiting for the second appeal to be over, so she can be convicted again. To make a public statement to that effect is to deny Amanda the right to the presumption of innocence and a fair trial. Kercher might as well have written it before the first trial.

The fact is, if Amanda is justifiably acquitted, John Kercher will find himself in an uncomfortable position. He actually will be responsible for inflicting more pain on the other families than they have been responsible for inflicting on him. The position he has taken in his recent essay is assertive, directed and purposeful; in other words, he has gone on the offensive. I'm not sure the same can be said for the defendants' families.

To insinuate Mignini is corrupt is not offensive? To affirm police planted evidence is not offensive? To convey experts and judges are idiots is not offensive? To tell lies about the case and the evidence and make hypocrite statements on television is not offensive? To feed a media cult of Amanda Knox on the media is not offensive?

It appears to me you are interpreting Mary's post as saying Kercher was saying things that were offensive. Going on the offensive simply means that Kercher is attacking and that is the meaning that she intended with her post.

 

[Kaosium]

Just did (at 1.01)

1.01? I have no idea what you mean. I looked for a post timestamped 1:01 and found nothing. I don't recall seeing a recent post from you on this other than one a while back to tell Billy Ryan you thought he was wrong. That's not an argument.

On the RM post - NO, that was a secondary point.

Then what was the primary point?

 

[RoseMontague]

I'm not sure how this relates to my last reply to you so may I be permitted a less OT post - would you be happier if we called 'Dempsey's Circus' a Parade.

A perp walk followed by a perp drive might be an even better description.

 

[platonov]

1.01? I have no idea what you mean. I looked for a post timestamped 1:01 and found nothing. I don't recall seeing a recent post from you on this other than one a while back to tell Billy Ryan you thought he was wrong. That's not an argument.

Look again

Then what was the primary point?

I dont wish to be rude but read the post

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I don't get it.

Halides1,

Is it really necessary for Lionking to provide you with examples? Have you become so caught up in this case that you are no longer capable of identifying those instances for yourself?

Amazer

Amazer,

Why is it wrong to criticize Mr. Kercher but OK to criticize the Mellas family in far less temperate terms, as Machiavelli has done?

 

[platonov]

A perp walk followed by a perp drive might be an even better description.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_383964cfaeac99f4c7.jpg[/qimg]

Indeed , and perhaps even a more accurate description ; But I thought billyryan might prefer Parade - we shall see, if he responds.
I see halides1 had plumped for 'caravan' IIRC ( this is all superfluous nonsense either way).

The ToD ranges in the appeal docs are of more relevance but you didn't favour me with a response on that ?

 

[lionking]

Amazer,

Why is it wrong to criticize Mr. Kercher but OK to criticize the Mellas family in far less temperate terms, as Machiavelli has done?

Do you not see the difference? Really?

How about the fact that Kercher has lost a daughter for good. AK and RS are responsible unless the appeals are successful. His position should attract sympathy not criticism.