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Wikileaks is an enemy of the United States

This isn't a case of shooting the "messenger". The contents of the latest leaks haven't been particularly damaging to national security. Just mildly embarrassing.

This is a case of prosecuting the fence for stolen property and the fence (or defenders of the fence) shouting, "Why are you prosecuting me? It's not my fault a thief broke into your house and took your things and then gave to me so I could sell them, knowing they were your stolen property!"

But we do prosecute fences, regardless of whether we can also locate the original thief. And if the fences are located in a country other than the one in which the property is stolen, the country in which the fence is located will prosecute them for violation of that country's laws.

What we don't do is execute the fence and calls for Assuage's execution are outrageous and rightly condemned. Calls for his prosecution, however, appear to be eminently reasonable.

Really good analogy. Information=property and should be protected as such. If you know something you were not supposed to, that means you're in possession of stolen property. If you see something you're not supposed to, that's inadvertent theft. Top notch comparison. Really spot on.
 
Spot on. The pursuit of Wikileaks is the best example of shooting the messenger I've seen in quite some time.

From what I have seen the only damage done by the latest Wikileaks dump was to the reputation of certain corrupt foreign politicians. The revelations were not exactly new, they just confirmed what had already been widely suspected.
 
Fencing isn't protected by the First Amendment. Publications and source confidentiality are.

First, Australians acting in Australia are not protected by the First Amendment (whic is an American law). Australia is investigating Wikileaks, not America.

Second, source confidentiality is not protected by the First Amendment. Reporters can be and are tossed into jail for refusing to reveal sources.

The first amendment is not absolute protection against disclosures. Obviously, government officials who leak confidential documents can be prosecuted for violations of secrecy laws, notwithstanding the First Amendment.

I don't know if American secrecy laws allow for prosecution of newspapers that publish materials they know to be protected by secrecy laws. I don't know if it is illegal for people to receive information they know to be protected by secrecy laws. That's why I asked people to let me know if they think there's a law out there that was violated by my reading the New York Times coverage of this story.
 
First, Australians acting in Australia are not protected by the First Amendment (whic is an American law). Australia is investigating Wikileaks, not America.

Right, but there is a lot of discussion about extradition to America.

Second, source confidentiality is not protected by the First Amendment. Reporters can be and are tossed into jail for refusing to reveal sources.

I phrased that poorly. The First Amendment protects Assange's ability to publish the material leaked to him. He can keep his sources confidential, and, in fact, can be sued by the sources if he fails to do so, unless a court orders otherwise. In Cohen v. Cowles Media Co., the reporter had to pay his source $200,000 for revealing his identity.

In Branzburg v. Hayes the Supreme Court held, "news gathering is not without First Amendment protections." Thus, on some level sources are protected by the First Amendment, it's just not very clear how. THis is why there's a lot of clamoring for more detailed shield laws.

See also the 2nd Circuit decision in Baker v. F & F Investment. It holds:

...compelling a newsgatherer to disclose confidential sources “unquestionably threatens a journalist’s ability to secure information that is made available to him only on a confidential basis.” “The deterrent effect such disclosure is likely to have on future ‘undercover’ investigative reporting,” the court continued, “threatens freedom of the press and the public’s need to be informed ... [and] undermines values which traditionally have been protected by federal courts applying federal public policy.”
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/press/topic.aspx?topic=shield_laws

The bolded is obviously a First Amendment protection. Some Courts have made the First Amendment source of protection clear, others have argued against it:

Like the court in Baker, many federal courts have recognized a “qualified” newsgathering privilege, that is, a privilege, which can be overcome in certain circumstances, against testifying or producing information. These courts have held that such a privilege is rooted in the First Amendment and supported by the decision in Branzburg. Other federal courts, however, have rejected the existence of such a privilege, saying that neither the First Amendment nor Branzburg requires that newsgatherers be treated differently than other citizens who receive a subpoena.

In order to defeat the privelage and force testimony concerning sources, the Court must find:

-The information is highly material and relevant to the case at issue.
-A compelling need exists for the information.
-The information cannot be obtained by other means.

So yes, sources are protected by the law and the source of that protection is the First Amendment.

The first amendment is not absolute protection against disclosures. Obviously, government officials who leak confidential documents can be prosecuted for violations of secrecy laws, notwithstanding the First Amendment.

It's not complete, but it's quite a ways beyond the First Amendment protections extended to fencing stolen property.

I don't know if American secrecy laws allow for prosecution of newspapers that publish materials they know to be protected by secrecy laws. I don't know if it is illegal for people to receive information they know to be protected by secrecy laws. That's why I asked people to let me know if they think there's a law out there that was violated by my reading the New York Times coverage of this story.

There is no such law.

There are laws that make it illegal to posses certain things, like child pornography, no matter how they're obtained, but that's very limited.
 
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If the material was provided by somebody who had to legal access to it, it might constitute a wiretap.

That would not, as I understand it, be protected as it would be the fruit of a poisoned tree.

For example when the GOP leadership were exposed as liars via a recorded cellphone call a number of years ago...
 
So do you believe that it's ok for secret documents which detail NON-ILLEGAL activities to be released even if it does risk our National Security and relationship with allies?

So do you believe all of the media should be arrested anytime they publish any leaked information or documents? Remember, this would also result in your Fox News heroes being arrested.
 
So do you believe all of the media should be arrested anytime they publish any leaked information or documents? Remember, this would also result in your Fox News heroes being arrested.

I'll answer your question even though you refused to answer mine.

I believe it is illegal for someone to leak this info...and he will be prosecuted.

But no, I do not think the media should be arrested for publishing it.

I think it is unwise and hurtful to US National Security to publish leaked information of NON-ILLEGAL U.S. activities...and I think media organizations should give thought to this...although they are operating under "well the NYT is publishing it, we should too!"

The American public has no right to know of the NON-ILLEGAL secret communications between the State Department and other countries.

It damages the U.S....and this is Julian Assange's goal.

He is facilitating this effort and he is NOT a journalist.

We've repeatedly appealed to him to not publish this info and he did so anyway.

It should also be noted that organizations and people CAN be held responsible for publishing classified secrets under the Espionage Act.

I would be for trying to use whatever legal measures are available against Assange, yes I know he's not an American.

But not against newspapers...who I believe would not be publishing this if not for Wikileaks existence in the first place.
 
I believe it is illegal for someone to leak this info...and he will be prosecuted.

But no, I do not think the media should be arrested for publishing it.

There's a wee bit of a contradiction here. If you don't think the media should be arrested for publishing it, why do you think Assange should be?

He didn't leak the info; someone leaked it to him, and he published it. Just like CNN, Fox News, and everyone else is doing.
 
There's a wee bit of a contradiction here. If you don't think the media should be arrested for publishing it, why do you think Assange should be?

He didn't leak the info; someone leaked it to him, and he published it. Just like CNN, Fox News, and everyone else is doing.

There is a distinction...

Who is CNN, FOX News, and everyone else getting the info from?

to me, Assange and the leaker are working in conjunction.

And as I said, people can be prosecuted under the Espionage Act for publishing classified information. I don't think it should be applied to these news organizations, I do however think that any and all legal means should be used against Assange and Wikileaks.
 
Right, but there is a lot of discussion about extradition to America.
But you were responding to me and I didn't mention anything about extradition to America.

The First Amendment protects Assange's ability to publish the material leaked to him.
Not in Australia. I'm not sure the First Amendment can ever apply extra-territorially to non-Americans.

There is no such law.
I didn't think so, but others in this thread have been saying that I may have broken laws.
 
There is a distinction...

Who is CNN, FOX News, and everyone else getting the info from?

to me, Assange and the leaker are working in conjunction.

And as I said, people can be prosecuted under the Espionage Act for publishing classified information. I don't think it should be applied to these news organizations, I do however think that any and all legal means should be used against Assange and Wikileaks.

The only distinction is the one you've manufactured out of thin air.

If it's a crime to publish leaked documents, then Fox News and the NYT are as guilty as Assange is. If it isn't, then you have no basis for calling for Assange's prosecution. Unless you have some evidence that Assange is actually involved in the leaking or hacking of the information, there's not a shred of difference.
 
The only distinction is the one you've manufactured out of thin air.

If it's a crime to publish leaked documents, then Fox News and the NYT are as guilty as Assange is. If it isn't, then you have no basis for calling for Assange's prosecution. Unless you have some evidence that Assange is actually involved in the leaking or hacking of the information, there's not a shred of difference.

No, it's a distinction that you are trying to claim "is the one you've manufactured out of thin air."...

of course you're wrong.

And apparently Eric Holder disagrees with you and is looking into this...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/29/AR2010112905973.html

"Under the Espionage Act, anyone who has unauthorized possession to information relating to the national defense and has reason to believe it could harm the United States may be prosecuted if he publishes it or willfully retains it when the government has demanded its return"
 
I do not see how that contradicts what Cleon wrote. If Assange is guilty of that, how are the person/people at the New York Times and those other sources not?
 
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I do not see how that contradicts what Clean wrote. If Assange is guilty of that, how are the person/people at the New York Times and those other sources not?

what part of or willfully retains it when the government has demanded its return did you not understand?

The other news organizations are reporting the story as "Wikileaks has released documents which contains x,y,z"

The US has a much better case against an organization who is working in conjunction with the leaker and facilitating the dissemination of this classified material to other people and news organizations because:

1) Wikileaks was asked beforehand not to publish it
2) Wikileaks was asked after to remove it

There IS a distinction here for a possible legal case.
 
That comes after an "or", not an "and".

Would somebody who has unauthorised possession of the information, believes it could harm the US and publishes it would also be going against it too?
 
Argument by bald assertion. Ok, fine. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I didn't realize that you can assert...I cannot.

my apologies...I'm fairly new here so I wasn't aware of this rule.

even though I provided links to current investigations by the DOJ, I'm still in the wrong here...sure...sure.
 
That comes after an "or", not an "and".

Would somebody who has unauthorised possession of the information, believes it could harm the US and publishes it would also be going against it too?

I don't think that makes any sense...was it supposed to?
 
I am trying to learn about this subject. I will find out elsewhere instead of putting up with your attitude.
 
Deepatrax, do you think that any White House staffer or Congressional aide who leaks private information re: the goings on of their respective place of work to the press should be prosecuted under the Espionage Act, especially if the leak involves stances on foreign policy/treaties/etc.? What if a newspaper is asked not to publish the leak and they do it anyway?
 

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