Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[shuttlt]

Well, regardless of whether you disagree with the prosecution's time of death, Massei's reasoning is circular and illogical. There are all sorts of reasons why she might have either been honestly mistaken in what she thought she heard, or why she might have (for some reason) sought to inject herself into the investigation. Note that I'm not suggesting that either of these alternatives is necessarily what actually happened - rather, I'm suggesting that it's poor reasoning to exclude the possibility that they might have happened.

I agree completely.

 

[TomCH]

irrelevant. it was effectively a holiday, in Perugia at least.

The fact that the school was closed, and some people took off from work to make it a long weekend (which is common when Thursday is a holiday), does not make it a holiday. For most people, it was a normal work day.

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't want to bring the mods down and have posts starts dissapearing. So I ask in all politeness. What is the problem? To me you are coming across as far and away the most agressive poster on the thread at the moment and I'm not at all sure that I want to continue debating with you in this way. At every opportunity my posts get interpreted as being part of some plan to slip something past you.

I agree with you. I trust that you're debating in good faith, and I believe that you're adding significantly to the debate. I think that your questions and comments are interesting and insightful, and I too can't understand why Withnail has jumped on your case. I hope we can all carry on the debate here in a civil and appropriate spirit of increasing knowledge and testing arguments.

 

[TomCH]

If the universities and most businesses are closed then that seems like a holiday to me. I don't know what else to call it.

Most businesses were NOT closed. Take, for example the store where Amanda was seen on the 2nd. They were open, and they wouldn't have been on a holiday.

 

[Withnail1969]

The fact that the school was closed, and some people took off from work to make it a long weekend (which is common when Thursday is a holiday), does not make it a holiday. For most people, it was a normal work day.

It wasn't a normal work day for any of the people involved in the case. Not Laura, Filomena, their boyfriends, or anyone else that I'm aware of.

It wasn't an official holiday - fair enough. But still pretty much a holiday.

 

[Alt+F4]

The issue is moot anyway because Meredith almost certainly died in the 21:05 to 21:30 time period, not at the absurd 23:30 time that Mignini finally settled on in an attempt to cram together all of the contradictory witness statements into some kind of coherent story.

So why did Francesco Introna, a defense expert, put the time of death at around 22:50?

 

[Withnail1969]

Most businesses were NOT closed. Take, for example the store where Amanda was seen on the 2nd. They were open, and they wouldn't have been on a holiday.

Yes, shops such as corner stores usually stay open in the UK on bank holidays. My local shop is open 16 hours a day 364 days a year. Does that mean national holidays don't happen in the UK?

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli,

Your position, as I understand it, is illogical. There is no absolute relationship between the lack of file release during the trial (by now amply documented) and whether or not the appeal documents reiterate a request for their release. Perhaps that request will be made later.

If the prosecution's evidence were so strong, they would have released the files long ago. The fact that the contintue to stonewall is an indication that they know how weak the evidence is.

No, the complaint for data missing would be in this appeal document, and the request for their release would be in the document too.
However, currently those positions are not expressed in te document, they are not the current defence position.

The lack of file release must not be called tlike that and addressed ambiguously as if it were a claim that there files were withheld by the prosecution or by the prosecution experts.
There is no claim that files are still not being released to the defence.
The so-called lack of file release is, in fact, only a lack of discovery within the timings considered useful at best for the defence, which means, the complaint is in fact about a delay in the release of files.
There is currently NO REFUSAL to release or to share files by the prosecution. This is what is the appeal documents say. All files the prosecution had have been released already, thisfact is not disputed
by the appeals, and there is no pending refusal.

 

[Amazer]

..and I think that you ********** are seriously mistaking 'obsession' with an honest desire for the truth.

Perhaps you should add 'Dictionary' to your Christmas wishlist. There really is no such word as 'guilter' either.

I would advise you to change the tone of your post.... It doesn't do anything to further the discussion.

 

[RoseMontague]

So why did Francesco Introna, a defense expert, put the time of death at around 22:50?

That is the figure he gave as his best estimate of TOD based on the body temperature calculations, not stomach contents.

 

[Alt+F4]

That is the figure he gave as his best estimate of TOD based on the body temperature calculations, not stomach contents.

But is he wrong?

 

[TomCH]

Yes, shops such as corner stores usually stay open in the UK on bank holidays. My local shop is open 16 hours a day 364 days a year. Does that mean national holidays don't happen in the UK?

Italy is NOT the UK (thankfully).

And it wasn't a holiday, so why keep going on that it 'effectively' was?

It wasn't.

 

[Machiavelli]

I see alot of IF's so i numbered them to respond.

1. Who wrote the confession? Was it recorded? How did they know what to type up if they didn't have a recorded version of the confession? Was they typing it up right there while she was telling the story? They must have had that typewriter on the table beside her.
2. What proof is there that Sollecito or Knox staged it?
3. I dont see how it matches Sollecito's foot, but thats a whole different discussion.
4. How do you prove its not planted or its not secondary transfer. Matter of fact they still haven't even proven its Sollecito's DNA.
5. How many lies has the prosecution presented in court?
6. Did they do a copper test? Did they do a blood test?(negative results) Did they do a DNA test?(negative results) Looks like its not blood.
7. Big IF here considered he didn't own a watch, and remembered seeing Knox/Sollecito on the wrong night.
8. Another big IF, you would think by now that most guilters wouldn't even mention the cleanup. Yet most of them are still hanging over a side of a cliff holding onto a piece of grass hoping it don't pull free.

However, I got a what if for you. What if Meredith died before 10pm.

I am not going to take any position about the time of death nor on any other uncertain issue.
I first take in account the items that constitute evidence with a precise meaning in relation to the defendants.
So for example, the luminol footprints are a set of findings that carries a lot of information for which for which no reasonable explanation was given. The stain of Amanda's blood on the faucet is without explanation too. The features of the bathmat print, the bra clas and all the rest. All attempts to build a defence on these points would produce vague, improbable, remote and otherwise unsupported scenarios.
Not to mention the inconsistent defensive theories about Amanda's declarations: about her fictional e-mail, false confession, hand written note, december interrogation, court statements. Sollecito's statements. And so on.

All this should "stand" in order to make the defensive position credible.

 

[RoseMontague]

But is he wrong?

I believe he is closer than the prosecution's estimates on TOD using body temp. Both sides gave a large range of times on this.

 

[katy_did]

A fair point. In addition, I wonder if - for example - the family of Jill Dando were upset with all the press attention on Barry George in the run-up to his (successful) appeal against her murder? I don't remember them writing articles about it, but I might be wrong. And Jill Dando was certainly beautiful and talented. Interesting too that last week the mantra was that the Kerchers' silence was dignifying and classy (which I'd agree with), yet this week it's "high time" that John Kercher spoke out.....

Yes, press coverage in these very high profile cases is always controversial/problematic, isn't it? I don't think the current press coverage of the Kercher case (generally more favourable to Knox and Sollecito) can be considered without also taking into account the highly prejudicial early reporting - two sides of the same coin. The choice to headline John Kercher's article with a reference to 'Foxy Knoxy' (the editors clearly couldn't resist - well, it draws in the readership...), given the article's content, unfortunately only goes to prove the point he's making.

The initial press reporting on the Jill Dando case after Barry George was arrested was all about the 'obsessive Queen fan' angle, IIRC (sure sign of a killer!); I even remember thinking at the time, what if he's innocent? Not much chance of a fair trial after all the one-sided press coverage. I don't know much about the later coverage leading up to his appeal - was it very different to the earlier reporting?

(Btw, I've just seen that Bard on PMF thinks I was "sniping at John Kercher" in my earlier post. Perhaps someone could gently explain to her that it wasn't John Kercher who wrote the 'Foxy Knoxy' headline, but the DM editors...).

 

[Withnail1969]

Italy is NOT the UK (thankfully).

And it wasn't a holiday, so why keep going on that it 'effectively' was?

It wasn't.

Schools are closed, many businesses are closed, banks are closed, nobody goes to work except for corner shop owners.

But it's not a holiday.

And anti-UK sentiments (racism?) noted.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

refused

There is currently NO REFUSAL to release or to share files by the prosecution. This is what is the appeal documents say. All files the prosecution had have been released already, thisfact is not disputed
by the appeals, and there is no pending refusal.

Machiavelli,

You are continuing to ignore what Sara Gino said on or about 25 September 2009. She said that she did not the testing dates. Because the dates would be part of the electronic data files, we know that she did not have the files, either. Moreover, you are continuing to ignore what Gregory Hampikian said in March of 2010 to the effect that he had still not been able to get copies of the files. His request went through the defense lawyers, who were refused. Whether he will be called during the appeal or whether he was a consultant is not finally the point. The defense was refused.

 

[Machiavelli]

If an old lady like Nara heard such a terrible scream through her closed window, it should have been heard in the neighbourhood. It wasn't, because no such scream occurred.

You forgot to insert "I think" in your statement. You think (or you pretend to think) the scream never occurred.
However if the confirmation argument is about the neighborhood, the request mst not be about a hearing test to Nara Capzzali.
It should have been about an investigation to question neighbours living in the area, to understand how many people could be around there at the time, what they where doing, if they heared something.
The hearing test instead is pointlsee. Nara is obvioualy not deaf, she was talking and answeriong in court with a normal voice volume, so she is perfectly able to hear noise at level of a normal conversation, clearly understanding the sound of all words. She also says, in her testimony, that she hears normally all noises from the parking lot, including low voice conversation from passers by, cars motors and doors, everything happens in the area below her apartment. If you decide that she is a credible person, then there is no specific reason to assume she is lying on her lack of hearing impairment.

 

[moodstream]

No, I think that ShuttIt was pointing out that if most of the residents of the girls' cottage and the boys' cottage below it were away that night, then might that situation also have applied to the apartments nearby?


Anyhow, as Kevin has pointed out, other factors mean that it's incredibly improbable that Meredith died at any time past 10pm, and almost impossible that she died beyond 11pm. Therefore, whatever Nara heard (or thinks she heard), it was not the "scream of death" of Meredith Kercher.

The pro-guilt position tirelessly requires acceptance of unusual conditions. Here, not only would the scream have to occur in such a peculiar way that Nara could hear it, in addition the argument requires a second peculiar position such that no one else would. That leaves aside the disconnect between the TOD evidence and the time of the scream.

Unbelievably to me, Nara’s dramatic retelling of the harrowing scream is considered to be a major factor in the jury’s decision of guilt. Presuming the police, prosecution, and the court want the truth revealed, and that they want Knox/Sollecito put in jail because they are guilty, those authorities should be clamoring to scientifically prove that Nara heard the scream.

What arguments favor the prosecution/courts decision not to allow empirical testing of Nara’s claim?

 

[Withnail1969]

She also says, in her testimony, that she hears normally all noises from the parking lot, including low voice conversation from passers by, cars motors and doors, everything happens in the area below her apartment. If you decide that she is a credible person, then there is no specific reason to assume she is lying on her lack of hearing impairment.

so Nara says she can hear things, and we are just supposed to believe her without any testing?

I do not decide she is a credible person, so tell me, what are my options?

No need to tell me, the court already decided it. I see.