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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Withnail1969 said:
If you could estimate the distance window-to-window that would be great. The guilters' estimates constantly shrink from 75 metres, to 40, to 32...
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You left out 300 meters, and 200 ...

Oh. Wait. Those weren't "guilter" estimates, were they.

Never mind.

BTW. If, as was suggested, the difference between 40 meters and 70 is due to measuring horizontally and not accounting for change in elevation, then the two locations would be 57 meters different in elevation. That seems like a lot. Someone else mentioned 6 meters. There's another big spread that it seems like could be narrowed down a bit.
 
shuttlt said:
The horrific scream, if it happened, would be quite quiet once it's worked it's way through two sets of windows. It's certainly within the margin of error that you had to be in a quiet appartment to hear it and near an appropriate window to hear it.
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You've completely either missed or dodged the point. It's pretty clear that out of possibly over 100 apartments more or less overlooking the cottage, somebody would have heard something. And if anyone did hear anything, a hard of hearing old lady would not exactly be a top likely candidate.

You were also saying that if there were students living in the area, they were probably out and about drinking. Interesting that nobody on the streets that night reported hearing anything.
 
Withnail1969 said:
You've completely either missed or dodged the point. It's pretty clear that out of possibly over 100 apartments more or less overlooking the cottage, somebody would have heard something. And if anyone did hear anything, a hard of hearing old lady would not exactly be a top likely candidate.

You were also saying that if there were students living in the area, they were probably out and about drinking. Interesting that nobody on the streets that night reported hearing anything.
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What about the tow truck driver and the folks with the broken down car? How much easier would it have been for them to hear a scream?
 
RoseMontague said:
What about the tow truck driver and the folks with the broken down car? How much easier would it have been for them to hear a scream?
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you would imagine either they, Curatolo or anybody out and about at the relatively early hour of 11:30 in the party town of Perugia would have heard this terrible scream of death. But apparently only old ladies could hear it through two sets of windows and shutters.
 
Machiavelli said:
1. If Amanda's confession is a misleading of the investigation, she is guilty.
2. If the burglary is staged, she is guilty.
3. If the footprint is Sollecito's, they are guilty.
4. If the bra clasp is not planted or not due to secondary transfer, they are guilty.
5. If their recollection of facts is a series of lies, they are hampering the investigation and this is evidence of guilt.
6. If the luminol footprints are not caused by something like a copper-based substance in a context unrelated to the murder, they are guilty.
7. If Curatolo's testimony alone is true, they are guilty. If there is evidence on one of the two, the othr is guilty.
8. If a cleanup occurred, they are guilty.
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I see alot of IF's so i numbered them to respond.

1. Who wrote the confession? Was it recorded? How did they know what to type up if they didn't have a recorded version of the confession? Was they typing it up right there while she was telling the story? They must have had that typewriter on the table beside her.
2. What proof is there that Sollecito or Knox staged it?
3. I dont see how it matches Sollecito's foot, but thats a whole different discussion.
4. How do you prove its not planted or its not secondary transfer. Matter of fact they still haven't even proven its Sollecito's DNA.
5. How many lies has the prosecution presented in court?
6. Did they do a copper test? Did they do a blood test?(negative results) Did they do a DNA test?(negative results) Looks like its not blood.
7. Big IF here considered he didn't own a watch, and remembered seeing Knox/Sollecito on the wrong night.
8. Another big IF, you would think by now that most guilters wouldn't even mention the cleanup. Yet most of them are still hanging over a side of a cliff holding onto a piece of grass hoping it don't pull free.

However, I got a what if for you. What if Meredith died before 10pm.
 
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Withnail1969 said:
You've completely either missed or dodged the point.
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Can you please stop reading malign intentions between the lines of other peoples posts.

Withnail1969 said:
It's pretty clear that out of possibly over 100 apartments more or less overlooking the cottage, somebody would have heard something.
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Is it 100? OK. How many of them had the radio or TV on and wouldn't have heard it. If the majority of the residents were elderly maybe their hearing was worse than Nara's, or they had already gone to bed.

Withnail1969 said:
And if anyone did hear anything, a hard of hearing old lady would not exactly be a top likely candidate.
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We don't know what the other candidates are like. Maybe the most important thing was that her hearing was OK (was it, I don't think we know) and that her appartment was quiet.

Withnail1969 said:
You were also saying that if there were students living in the area, they were probably out and about drinking. Interesting that nobody on the streets that night reported hearing anything.
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Were there any bars nearby? Either way you'd need to be on the street away from the noise of the bars. The CCTV doesn't show much, but I thought it did show there weren't many people about.
 
TomCH said:
No, the 1st is the holiday, not the 2nd.

We have the same holiday.
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You are completely, totally and utterly wrong. None of the Italians such as Filomena or Laura were at work on Nov 2nd, and the universities in Perugia were closed.

This is a basic part of the case - that's why nobody was at the cottage apart from Meredith and her killer(s).

Please do some more research on the case as you're not doing yourself any favours at the moment.
 
Withnail1969 said:
you would imagine either they, Curatolo or anybody out and about at the relatively early hour of 11:30 in the party town of Perugia would have heard this terrible scream of death. But apparently only old ladies could hear it through two sets of windows and shutters.
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Probably just the lousy brakes on that disco bus as it was running over a cat and at the same time the tow truck was engaging it's screechy winch and two people were loudly arguing in high pitched Italian and someone fell down those metal stairs and the neighbors next door were playing Night of the Living Dead on their TV set, all occurring in the same instant as the flap of a butterfly's wings.
 
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shuttlt said:
This is surely the real argument for disbelieving her?
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Yes. And it throws into even sharper relief Massei's "expert" reasoning about the scream:

"If there had not been such a scream, and if Mrs. Capezzali had not actually heard it, then the Court can see no reason why she would have spoken about it." (Massei sentencing report, p96 English translation)
 
LondonJohn said:
Yes. And it throws into even sharper relief Massei's "expert" reasoning about the scream:

"If there had not been such a scream, and if Mrs. Capezzali had not actually heard it, then the Court can see no reason why she would have spoken about it." (Massei sentencing report, p96 English translation)
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Depends if you believe there is a problem with the prosecution timing or not.
 
RoseMontague said:
What about the tow truck driver and the folks with the broken down car? How much easier would it have been for them to hear a scream?
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If there was a scream, they would have heard it rather easy. They were not as far from the cottage and outside.

My take is that Nara heard the tow truck. Or perhaps she heard a scream and people running on Halloween night. Only later, after hearing about the murder and the victim's scream did she come to believe that is what she had heard.

We do know her memory is far from perfect. Nara claimed to have seen the headline about the murder in the paper the next morning. But as the murder wasn't even discovered until after 1 PM the next day, it could not have been in the papers that morning. Nara also didn't go to the police with her story about hearing a scream. The police didn't find her by canvassing the neighborhood. She first told her story to a journalist several weeks after the murder. Plenty of time for her memories to be combined with what she was seeing on TV and reading in the papers.

This doesn't make Nara a lair. Being confused isn't the same a lying.
 
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shuttlt said:
Were there any bars nearby? Either way you'd need to be on the street away from the noise of the bars. The CCTV doesn't show much, but I thought it did show there weren't many people about.
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Oh I see. So when you want people to be out of their apartments drinking in bars so that they can't hear any screams, of course they are all out drinking.

But when that proves to be inconvenient because people on the streets can hear a lot more than, for example, Nara, then there's nobody on the streets.
 
Withnail1969 said:
You are completely, totally and utterly wrong. None of the Italians such as Filomena or Laura were at work on Nov 2nd, and the universities in Perugia were closed.

This is a basic part of the case - that's why nobody was at the cottage apart from Meredith and her killer(s).

Please do some more research on the case as you're not doing yourself any favours at the moment.
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No, YOU are wrong.

Meredith was killed on the 1st, and that day being a holiday is why people went away. Schools and some businesses also closed on the 2nd to make a long weekend, but the 2nd is NOT a holiday.

from http://www.lifeinitaly.com/travel/italy-november

"All Saints Day (tutti i Santi): This day is a national holiday and is celebrated on 1st November. "

It's also a holiday here. On the second, Italy is open.

http://www.inforoma.it/holidays.php

" * January 1: New Year's Day**
* January 6: Epiphany
* April 17: Easter Monday (in 2006)
* April 25: Liberation Day
* May 1: Labor Day**
* June 2: Anniversary of the Founding of the Republic
* August 15: Feast of the Assumption (also known as Ferragosto)
* November 1: All Saints
* December 8: Feast of the Immaculate Conception
* December 25: Christmas Day**
* December 26: St. Stephen's Day (Boxing Day)
"
 
TomCH said:
No, YOU are wrong.

Meredith was killed on the 1st, and that day being a holiday is why people went away. Schools and some businesses also closed on the 2nd to make a long weekend, but the 2nd is NOT a holiday.
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irrelevant. it was effectively a holiday, in Perugia at least.
 
Withnail1969 said:
You are completely, totally and utterly wrong. None of the Italians such as Filomena or Laura were at work on Nov 2nd, and the universities in Perugia were closed.

This is a basic part of the case - that's why nobody was at the cottage apart from Meredith and her killer(s).

Please do some more research on the case as you're not doing yourself any favours at the moment.
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No - the 2nd November isn't a public holiday in Italy. The 1st (All Saints' Day) is a national public holiday, but the 2nd (All Souls' Day) isn't. However, since many families hold group dinners on the evening of the 2nd to commemorate members of the family who have died, it's apparent that many Italians take the 2nd November as a day of holiday to run through from the first. This practice would most likely have been especially prevalent in 2007, when the 1st was a Thursday and the 2nd was a Friday - I imagine that many would have almost automatically have taken the 2nd as holiday, to run into the weekend.
 
LondonJohn said:
No - the 2nd November isn't a public holiday in Italy. The 1st (All Saints' Day) is a national public holiday, but the 2nd (All Souls' Day) isn't. However, since many families hold group dinners on the evening of the 2nd to commemorate members of the family who have died, it's apparent that many Italians take the 2nd November as a day of holiday to run through from the first. This practice would most likely have been especially prevalent in 2007, when the 1st was a Thursday and the 2nd was a Friday - I imagine that many would have almost automatically have taken the 2nd as holiday, to run into the weekend.
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If the universities and most businesses are closed then that seems like a holiday to me. I don't know what else to call it.
 
shuttlt said:
Depends if you believe there is a problem with the prosecution timing or not.
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Well, regardless of whether you disagree with the prosecution's time of death, Massei's reasoning is circular and illogical. There are all sorts of reasons why she might have either been honestly mistaken in what she thought she heard, or why she might have (for some reason) sought to inject herself into the investigation. Note that I'm not suggesting that either of these alternatives is necessarily what actually happened - rather, I'm suggesting that it's poor reasoning to exclude the possibility that they might have happened.
 
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