Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Withnail1969]

Sure, it'll do something, but shutters aren't airtight. Is single glazing + shutters as good as double glazing, or secondary glazing? If not then we're talking single digit decibels.

Have you seen the shutters at the cottage? they're pretty substantial.

 

[RoseMontague]

That calculation might be correct if Meredith were standing On the cottage roof facing Nara's window at the time of her scream. The presumption though, using the prosecutions theory of the crime, is that Meredith was in her room at the time of this scream.

Meredith's window faces in the opposite direction and could not contribute to the sound reaching Nara's ear. The balcony door faces to the side and is shielded from Nara's view by the rest of the cottage. There is a small window in the large bath that faces Nara's window and sound from Meredith's bedroom can reach this window by bouncing down the hall, spreading out in the living room/kitchen and squeezing through the door to the bath. Then account for the glazing on this window. After that, it's a straight shot to Nara's window... almost. There is a small matter of the elevation of the road blocking the view. As I recall, Nara also claimed to have seen Amanda and Raffaele snuggling the day after. They would have been essentially in front of this window. But only the roof of the cottage was visible from Nara's window.

I'd love to see the Mythbusters bust this one. In their typical fashion, they wouldn't give up until they produced a loud enough noise for Nara to hear. Then the new tenant in the cottage could get double glazing when they replace all the windows that shattered

Thanks Dan_O,
Is there a picture of Nara's window that also captures the view from the cottage or a picture of Meredith's place from Nara's window?

 

[Withnail1969]

So you don't say that it's impossible based on the distance etc. etc. your argument has been based on other people not hearing the scream? OK.

I had been under the impression that some people regarded it as obviously nonsense that she could have heard anything based on the physics of the situation. That was all I was seaking to address. Clearly there are a lot of variables that an experiment would be the only way to deal with.

Don't forget she also claimed to hear the rustling of leaves as people escaped the scene of the murder. Given your calculations, do you think that's likely?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

So you don't say that it's impossible based on the distance etc. etc. your argument has been based on other people not hearing the scream? OK.

I had been under the impression that some people regarded it as obviously nonsense that she could have heard anything based on the physics of the situation. That was all I was seaking to address. Clearly there are a lot of variables that an experiment would be the only way to deal with.

Your top end result was 60 or so, as I recall, assuming a 40m distance. Knock off another 6 for extra distance, knock off another 10 by assuming that Meredith didn't give voice to a scream as loud as any ever recorded, and then assume that the various walls and windows in the house between Meredith and Nara count as another layer of double glazing (which seems to me to be over-generous to Nara) and we're down to a whisper or less, as I understand it.

Now I don't pretend that these kinds of napkin calculations are any substitute for actually running a scientific test, but based on napkin math the claim that Nara could hear a scream seems quite implausible, and rusting leaves simply impossible.

The issue is moot anyway because Meredith almost certainly died in the 21:05 to 21:30 time period, not at the absurd 23:30 time that Mignini finally settled on in an attempt to cram together all of the contradictory witness statements into some kind of coherent story. If Nara heard anything around 23:30 it wasn't Meredith, because she had been dead for hours at that point, so whether or not she could have heard a bloodcurdling scream from Meredith's room is irrelevant.

 

[shuttlt]

Have you seen the shutters at the cottage? they're pretty substantial.

Yes. But they aren't airtight. I'd be surprised if they would do better than drop the sound by 10dB.

 

[shuttlt]

Don't forget she also claimed to hear the rustling of leaves as people escaped the scene of the murder. Given your calculations, do you think that's likely?

No I don't.

 

[Withnail1969]

Yes. But they aren't airtight. I'd be surprised if they would do better than drop the sound by 10dB.

the interior ones are pretty much airtight (as much as shutters can be). They are solid. Obviously the exterior ones have a louvred construction.

 

[shuttlt]

Your top end result was 60 or so, as I recall, assuming a 40m distance. Knock off another 6 for extra distance, knock off another 10 by assuming that Meredith didn't give voice to a scream as loud as any ever recorded, and then assume that the various walls and windows in the house between Meredith and Nara count as another layer of double glazing (which seems to me to be over-generous to Nara) and we're down to a whisper or less, as I understand it.

Now I don't pretend that these kinds of napkin calculations are any substitute for actually running a scientific test, but based on napkin math the claim that Nara could hear a scream seems quite implausible, and rusting leaves simply impossible.

I don't see how the rustling leaves could be right. The scream.... it depends on your assumptions. A whisper is certainly audible, depending on what other noises are competing for our attention, and it could have been louder than that.

The issue is moot anyway because Meredith almost certainly died in the 21:05 to 21:30 time period, not at the absurd 23:30 time that Mignini finally settled on in an attempt to cram together all of the contradictory witness statements into some kind of coherent story. If Nara heard anything around 23:30 it wasn't Meredith, because she had been dead for hours at that point, so whether or not she could have heard a bloodcurdling scream from Meredith's room is irrelevant.

Sure, if the muder happened at a different time and question of hearing anythinig isn't desperately relevant.

 

[Withnail1969]

I don't see how the rustling leaves could be right. The scream.... it depends on your assumptions. A whisper is certainly audible, depending on what other noises are competing for our attention, and it could have been louder than that.


Sure, if the muder happened at a different time and question of hearing anythinig isn't desperately relevant.

Also let's not forget Nara is not a young lady. Late 60s? 70s? I don't remember. But let's face it, she's in hearing aid territory.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

no release

Yes. And this is a complaint related to the first instance trial. And it is something else.
Where is the claim there are data still not release? Where is the request to obtain other files?

There are no such claims and requests that I could find in the appeals, only the claim of late discovery. The argument of lack of discovery (late discovery) is a complaint on a point in terms rights of defence. It means they think it was not fair for them to not have these documents during their defence in real time together with the prosecution.
It is not a request to obtain further files.

Machiavelli,

How do you explain the fat that the defense asked for independent testing of the evidence? If they had the files, they would not need to have made that request. We know that the files were not released at least as of September 2009, on the basis of what Sara Gino said. How could the defense properly prepare a counterattack on the evidence without the files.

 

[Machiavelli]

That calculation might be correct if Meredith were standing On the cottage roof facing Nara's window at the time of her scream. The presumption though, using the prosecutions theory of the crime, is that Meredith was in her room at the time of this scream.

Meredith's window faces in the opposite direction and could not contribute to the sound reaching Nara's ear. The balcony door faces to the side and is shielded from Nara's view by the rest of the cottage. There is a small window in the large bath that faces Nara's window and sound from Meredith's bedroom can reach this window by bouncing down the hall, spreading out in the living room/kitchen and squeezing through the door to the bath. Then account for the glazing on this window. After that, it's a straight shot to Nara's window... almost. There is a small matter of the elevation of the road blocking the view. As I recall, Nara also claimed to have seen Amanda and Raffaele snuggling the day after. They would have been essentially in front of this window. But only the roof of the cottage was visible from Nara's window.

(...)

Meredith's room faces a large door window that leads to the terrace. This window faces exactly the door of Meredith's room.
The terrace as a low horizontal surface would also work as a platea reflecting sound waves and improve to convey noise.
This window has an orientation compatible with Nara's window and even a better angle with Antonella Monacchia's window.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli,

How do you explain the fat that the defense asked for independent testing of the evidence? If they had the files, they would not need to have made that request. We know that the files were not released at least as of September 2009, on the basis of what Sara Gino said. How could the defense properly prepare a counterattack on the evidence without the files.

Before making arguments, whe could clarify if it's true they are currently requsting for the release of files or not. If it is true they accuse the prosecution to withhold files, or not.
I can conclude that these are not true.

The defence wants a new testing of DNA evidence. How do I explain it? Well if I were the defence I would do the same, since their position is very weak ant the only chance is to pick another cart, to see if new tests yield different results. They ask for new tests because the current results are unfavourable, and they have to try something.

 

[Withnail1969]

Meredith's room faces a large door window that leads to the terrace. This window faces exactly the door of Meredith's room.
The terrace as a low horizontal surface would also work as a platea reflecting sound waves and improve to convey noise.
This window has an orientation compatible with Nara's window and even a better angle with Antonella Monacchia's window.

Except that nobody in the neighbourhood except an old lady who probably needs a hearing aid heard this terrible scream followed by rustling leaves as people ran away. Bring on the audiometric tests.

 

[Machiavelli]

(..)

I'm not holding my breath for you or any of your community to acknowledge that the Naruto file is sufficient proof of innocence when combined with the body temperature, stomach contents and witness statements. Nor for any of you to acknowledge that the error log files are sufficient proof that they could not possibly have murdered Meredith at any time that night, regardless of whether you remain in denial about the witness statements and stomach contents. Nor for any of you to acknowledge that the stomach contents evidence proves that you were all utterly, provably and completely wrong in believing Nara and Curatolo to be reliable witnesses. One of the other things we see a lot around here is that believers in crazy things rarely change their minds even when confronted with ironclad proof that they are delusional.

In fact I will not acknowledge this, because all this is false and plain wrong in logic.
But what I object to actually, is being addressed as a member part of a community, who allegedly agrees on some doctrine, mentality or way of thinking. I suggest you may just address your beliefs about the case, and not about mindsets of hypothetical classes of people.

 

[Machiavelli]

Except that nobody in the neighbourhood except an old lady who probably needs a hearing aid heard this terrible scream followed by rustling leaves as people ran away. Bring on the audiometric tests.

If you don't believe Nara because of lack of testimonies in agreement with her, this is a completely different argumen and has nothing to do with distances.

 

[Withnail1969]

If you don't believe Nara because of lack of testimonies in agreement with her, this is a completely different argumen and has nothing to do with distances.

If an old lady like Nara heard such a terrible scream through her closed window, it should have been heard in the neighbourhood. It wasn't, because no such scream occurred.

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks Dan_O,
Is there a picture of Nara's window that also captures the view from the cottage or a picture of Meredith's place from Nara's window?

I don't think Nara let anybody in but her neighbor upstairs did so there is probably a picture from 1 floor up. I also may be able to recreate the elevation profile from this picture and google maps:

 

[Withnail1969]

I don't think Nara let anybody in but her neighbor upstairs did so there is probably a picture from 1 floor up. I also may be able to recreate the elevation profile from this picture and google maps:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=4080[/qimg]

If you could estimate the distance window-to-window that would be great. The guilters' estimates constantly shrink from 75 metres, to 40, to 32...

 

[shuttlt]

If an old lady like Nara heard such a terrible scream through her closed window, it should have been heard in the neighbourhood. It wasn't, because no such scream occurred.

Should it? It depend very much on the accoustics, doesn't it? A scream is the kind of sound that I'd have thought would echo well. Maybe we could do the maths on how many households would have been in a position to hear it. You'd need to be awake, outdoors, or near a window facing the right way and with little or no background noise at exactly the right time.

By the way, why are you asking for audiometric tests? Your argument doesn't require it. If the noise would have been audible it can't have happened because others didn't report it. If the noise wouldn't have been audible then she couldn't have heard it.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

whether file release is mentioned in the appeal is another matter

Before making arguments, whe could clarify if it's true they are currently requsting for the release of files or not. If it is true they accuse the prosecution to withhold files, or not.
I can conclude that these are not true.

The defence wants a new testing of DNA evidence. How do I explain it? Well if I were the defence I would do the same, since their position is very weak ant the only chance is to pick another cart, to see if new tests yield different results. They ask for new tests because the current results are unfavourable, and they have to try something.

Machiavelli,

Your position, as I understand it, is illogical. There is no absolute relationship between the lack of file release during the trial (by now amply documented) and whether or not the appeal documents reiterate a request for their release. Perhaps that request will be made later.

If the prosecution's evidence were so strong, they would have released the files long ago. The fact that the contintue to stonewall is an indication that they know how weak the evidence is.