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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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platonov,

I am citing Frank Sfarzo as a reporter, not as an expert in DNA. Once you begin to cite evidence on a regular basis, you will have a clearer picture of how this works. The defense did not have the electronic data files, lab protocols, or contamination logs (if they exist). When the testing involves low levels of DNA or DNA mixtures, this is an unconscionable breach of the principle of discovery. Try using my username and the search term "Krane" in the advanced search function to see why.


And now the defence want to make the same claims on appeal [naturally ?] - and we have to wait & see what the appeal court rules and whether its a substantive issue or just more legal maneuvering.

Without the fully translated docs [to see how much emphasis is placed on this] and somebody with a working knowledge* of Italian Law (with particular emphasis on discovery rules regarding DNA testing) - there we have it.


My first post covers this with the section added for clarity - Suffice to say I don't take your word for it.

Both teams on the ground will fight it out on appeal (again) - It may be [seems to be ?] just legal maneuvering.

With regard to citing evidence when you and I have sparred in the past on much simpler issues - It is I who produces the evidence to counter your unsupported claims.
So that tone wont work with me :)

.
 
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Sorry, this isn't a very convincing argument. That it is part of the appeal, and that it is not a subjective argument, means it's probably true - Either they had access to everything or they didn't and it's not something they can argue at all if they did have everything. What is your evidence that they are lying?
By law, both sides have access to EVERYTHING.

Therefore, should one side, or the other, NOT have full access, SOMEONE is lying!

Simple, no?
 
all should support complete discovery

Of course, that would be the appeal lying.

But they are allowed to, are they not?

Perhaps it is not so simple. If the defense did not get everything, the prosecution is not lying unless they claimed to have turned everything over.

However, it is very clear from both Dr. Hampikian's interviews this past March and from Sara Gino's ABC interview in September of 2009 that the defense did not receive everything, or even close. It seems to me that even those who are pro-guilt should support complete discovery.
 
citations

And now the defence want to make the same claims on appeal [naturally ?] - and we have to wait & see what the appeal court rules and whether its a substantive issue or just more legal maneuvering.

Without the fully translated docs [to see how much emphasis is placed on this] and somebody with a working knowledge* of Italian Law (with particular emphasis on discovery rules regarding DNA testing) - there we have it.


My first post covers this with the section added for clarity - Suffice to say I don't take your word for it.

Both teams on the ground will fight it out on appeal (again) - It may be [seems to be ?] just legal maneuvering.

With regard to citing evidence when you and I have sparred in the past on much simpler issues - It is I who produces the evidence to counter your unsupported claims.
So that tone wont work with me :)

.

I have offered you an additional citation when you asked for one, not that there was anything wrong with the first one I provided. Whether or not you disliked the fact that the my citations contradict your arguments is not under my control. You have cited some testimony and a little bit of the Massei report. You have never cited the primary literature or textbooks in forensics or physiology. If you ever do, PM me, and I will explain how this is done, also.

One of my citations demonstrated that in most of the world, release of the electronic data files is normal. Do you disagree? Why would Italy want to be different (if it is)?
 
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Presumably this isn't the way it always goes? Also of course, the corruption/incompetence is, to a considerable degree, independent of the guilt or innocence of the suspects.

Indeed this can be true, in fact it occurred to me that despite going beyond the bounds of propriety, that the fact they'd even attempt it might by itself be an indication that they were guilty and the police and prosecutors were doing so to achieve a 'greater good.'

However, they had a year to collect evidence and prepare a case. How come they couldn't come up with anything that passes the sniff test? The quality of the 'superwitnesses' would have embarrassed Jim Garrison in the Clay Shaw prosecution, the physical 'evidence' presented seems more of an indictment of the prosecution when the whole sordid story of their collection and presentation is considered. What is there that actually got presented at trial that you'd consider evidence of murder?
 
please clarify what non-Italian agencies are

But I do support complete discovery, however I do NOT support non-Italian agencies.

Dr. Hampikian is a consultant for the defense. Sarah Gino was a defense witness. I am not sure what you mean.
 
By law, both sides have access to EVERYTHING.

Therefore, should one side, or the other, NOT have full access, SOMEONE is lying!

Simple, no?

Again, not evidence that they are lying about this. Just more evidence that by law they should have been given access to everything and we're not. Again, what is the point in saying they weren't given certain files if it can be immediately proven that they were?
 
Dr. Hampikian is a consultant for the defense. Sarah Gino was a defense witness. I am not sure what you mean.

Gino was hired by the Amanda Knox Italian lawyers, Hampikian was hired by Knox PR and so far doesn't seem to have anything to do with Italian defense strategy, however looking back a page or two the discussion seemed to be about the Sollecito appeal and the DNA on the bra clasp, so I do not see what right either had to the documents.
 
By law, both sides have access to EVERYTHING.

Therefore, should one side, or the other, NOT have full access, SOMEONE is lying!

Simple, no?

Mind providing a cite for where this is Italian law?

In Italy the PM (Mignini in this case) has full responsibility and authority for the investigation. To get access to the evidence he has, the defense must request it. In this case the court had to order the evidential support be provided to the defense - Mignini's opinion being paraphrased (by me) as -just believe us why would we lie?
As the appeals clearly state, the court order was never fully complied with.
In a civil law country (Italy) the judge gets to apply the law in each case as he/she sees fit and is not bound by precedents or common practices as is the case in common law countries like the UK, Canada or the USA. In the case, the judge decided that the raw data did not need to be shared with the defense. This is NOT the practice followed by other western style democracies and may in fact not be the practice elsewhere in Italy. (My thanks to Treehorn for his obstinance on the differences between common and civil law based judicial systems :))
 
<snip>
PS Quoting Frank S is hardly likely to sway the court or the neutral observer.
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Hi there Platonov,
I don't about that, for Mr. Sfarzo helped sway me to believe that "Foxy Knoxy" and "Daddy's Boy" were indeed innocent of any involvement in Meredith Kercher's bloody murder...

But hey, next time court convenes feel free to join Frank Sfarzo inside there and help give those of us interested in this brutal murder case the lowdown...
That would be cool, another direct source!
Thanks,
RWVBWL

PS-Also Platonov,
maybe you can ask your own sources in Perugia, Italy the same question I had posed to Frank Sfarzo awhile back
If he knew of any further break-ins to 2nd floor apartments or buildings since Rudy Guede was arrested and imprisoned?
Mr. Sfarzo publicly replied on Nov. 18, 2010 to my querry:
"'No' meaning that I don't know.
But if something like that had happened I would probably know."


It is almost 2 weeks later,
and I do find it interesting that neither you, nor any of the other colpevolisti have been able to refute Mr. Sfarzo's answer, yet...

Maybe it is true that the cops got their man,
you know, the 1 who had broken into the lawyers 2nd floor office and the 1 who apparently broke into Filomena Romanelli's 2nd floor window.
I do wonder, so please let me know if you have any other information to add to my inquiry,
as Frank Sfarzo has publicly given to me.
Thanks,:)
RW
 
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The part of my quoted post you snipped deals adequately with your response.

.
Your response or lack thereof does not surprise.
However, I think most here would agree that you left off the "i" and the "n" when you typed your reply.:)
 
wrong interpretation

Gino was hired by the Amanda Knox Italian lawyers, Hampikian was hired by Knox PR and so far doesn't seem to have anything to do with Italian defense strategy, however looking back a page or two the discussion seemed to be about the Sollecito appeal and the DNA on the bra clasp, so I do not see what right either had to the documents.

odeed,

Do you have a citation for your claim about how Dr. Hampikian was hired? You have misunderstood what wrote. No electronic data files were released either to Sollecito's defense or to Knox's defense.
 
A very good article by the editor of Oggi, Umberto Brindani. I'm assuming this is the same guy who was sued by Mignini? When I searched his name and Mignini's there were some links to the Monster of Florence case and Spezi's imprisonment; it's probably safe to say he's on Mignini's list of 'mortal enemies'. By the way, I hope those who criticize Italy/Italians will remember that this guy is also Italian...

EDITOR'S BLOG: JUSTICE AND EVIDENCE

This is a country in which all those accused of the massacre of Piazza della Loggia were acquitted, after 36 years of investigations and false leads: due to insufficient evidence. This is a country in which Marcello Dell’Utri, condemned in appeal to seven years for association with the Mafia, was acquitted for those charges which related to crimes happening after 1992: again for insufficient evidence.

To be precise, the outdated ‘insufficient evidence’ no longer exists; now other legal expressions are used (such as: “insufficient evidential value of the results”), but in short, as my grandmother used to say, it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other. When evidence is lacking, we do not convict. This is the lesson of the ancient habeas corpus. It is the saying, “better a hundred guilty people free than one innocent behind bars”. From this derives the famous presumption of innocence, in which no one can be considered guilty until the final sentence.

Whether we like it or not, it is this which distinguishes a civilized country from those in which there exist no required guarantees for those accused of crimes. In all Western democratic nations, those who judge and decide on a guilty sentence must be convinced “beyond any reasonable doubt”. This is depicted in scores of Hollywood films and legal thrillers. Think for a moment what it would be like if the opposite occurred. If to send someone to jail it would be enough to have only a vague clue, a controversial testimony, a somewhat patchy investigation combined perhaps with the histrionic skill of those representing the prosecution. It would be frightening, wouldn’t it? Because each of us would be at the mercy of the anonymous letter, of the informant who wants to do us harm, of the necessity at times of finding a culprit at all costs. That, certainly, would be some regime.

On the quiet, many may even think that Dell’Utri, Delfo Zorzi and perhaps thousands of others who over the years were acquitted for insufficient evidence were in reality responsible for the crimes of which they were accused. However, it is not enough to “think it”: it needs to be proven. Beyond any reasonable doubt. Because justice for the victims cannot be done with the force of injustice.

I recall these banal arguments because the appeal process for the Perugia murder has started: the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher for which Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were charged. Here I will not enter into the merits of the case; read the feature from page 20 and, if you want, buy the excellent book written by Maria D’Elia on sale with Oggi. I say only one thing.

Never, inquiring into a case in the news, have I found myself confronted with so much “reasonable doubt”: evidence lacking or disputable, judicial obstinacy, errors in the investigations, and so on. Perhaps it happened to me only with the massacre of Erba, with which we were occupied months ago: but in that case an alternative “truth” did not exist, or was totally unbelievable. For the murder of Mez, on the other hand, Rudy Guede has already been convicted twice: and therefore, even though the presumption of innocence prevails for him too, another path exists, another “truth” is possible (and, in my humble opinion, much more plausible).

The fact is we are not always able to establish the truth. The guilty person is not always found. There is not always justice for the victim. Unfortunately. At times the judicial machine must stop and confess its impotence. When it does not, because it decides to put the doubts and unanswered questions between parentheses, an injustice is committed. I hope that will not happen this time.
 
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Surely, debating stuff nobody has seen is the principle activity of the forum? Bigfoot anyone?
 
I have offered you an additional citation when you asked for one, not that there was anything wrong with the first one I provided. Whether or not you disliked the fact that the my citations contradict your arguments is not under my control. You have cited some testimony and a little bit of the Massei report. You have never cited the primary literature or textbooks in forensics or physiology. If you ever do, PM me, and I will explain how this is done, also.

One of my citations demonstrated that in most of the world, release of the electronic data files is normal. Do you disagree? Why would Italy want to be different (if it is)?



No halides1 you seem to have 'misinterpreted' the 2 points I initially made and the general thrust of my last post.

1 I didn't ask for additional citations [machine translated or otherwise] - I asked, as I did in a previous exchange, for the fully translated appeal docs - you cant provide them. That is apparent.
In this particular instance it would only aid in seeing how much emphasis the defence are placing on this aspect- it would say nothing of the chances of success. It didn't work first time round.

2 Without an opinion [and it would only be an opinion] from a disinterested party with a knowledge of how Italian courts deal with this aspect of discovery all we have to go on is the result of the motions in the first trial and the general observation that 'when then the facts aren't on your side pound the law'.

My view of your claims is heavily influenced by the nature of your previous arguments on quite straightforward issues - you refuse to deal with what primary documentation we have available, instead asking for cites or linking to partial & selective docs etc and obfuscating with appeals to what Frank S thinks or C Dempsey opines.

Leaving aside the fact that your claims on what is or isn't correct in Italian Law are neither informed nor disinterested.

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A very good article by the editor of Oggi, Umberto Brindani. I'm assuming this is the same guy who was sued by Mignini? When I searched his name and Mignini's there were some links to the Monster of Florence case and Spezi's imprisonment; it's probably safe to say he's on Mignini's list of 'mortal enemies'. By the way, I hope those who criticize Italy/Italians will remember that this guy is also Italian...

I don't know if this editor was listed separately, but Oggi magazine was on Mignini's enemies list.
 
I don't know if this editor was listed separately, but Oggi magazine was on Mignini's enemies list.

Thanks Kestrel. So the entire magazine was Mignini's enemy, LOL. I think the editor is being sued in relation to the Kercher case as well, based on a link posted a while ago by Rose; it didn't mention him by name, but IIRC it did say the editor along with another journalist were being sued. Crazy.
 
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