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Wikileaks is an enemy of the United States

Though I now realize the futility of such effort, I will once again post an in depth-discussion of Assange's philosophy and purpose:

http://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/julian-assange-and-the-computer-conspiracy-%E2%80%9Cto-destroy-this-invisible-government%E2%80%9D/

Yes, we all know Assange wants the downfall of America.

"Instead, he is trying to strangle the links that make the conspiracy possible, to expose the necessary porousness of the American state’s conspiratorial network in hopes that the security state will then try to shrink its computational network in response, thereby making itself dumber and slower and smaller."

In other words, he wants America to be dumber, slower and smaller to defend itself against its enemies. He wants America to be unable to react, organize and gather its intelligence, and to act on its threats. This is clear.

No matter how you try to put it, or to intellectualize it, he wants to disrupt the function of the US gorvernment, to make it vulnerable.

No news here.
 
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Yes, we all know Assange wants the downfall of America.

"Instead, he is trying to strangle the links that make the conspiracy possible, to expose the necessary porousness of the American state’s conspiratorial network in hopes that the security state will then try to shrink its computational network in response, thereby making itself dumber and slower and smaller."

In other words, he wants America to be dumber, slower and smaller to defend itself against its enemies. He wants America to be unable to react, organize and gather its intelligence, and to act on its threats. This is clear.

No matter how you try to put it, or to intellectualize it, he wants to disrupt the function of the US gorvernment, to make it vulnerable.

No news here.

So first of all, you acknowledge that you were wrong when you said it was "just" a dump. My post was in response to that claim. We can move onto other matters if you like, but before we start dancing from subject to subject, it should be acknowledged that Assange has a goal in all of this.

And, of course, we get a defense of this expensive, useless secrecy for secrecy's sake through the catch-all of national security. How can we defend ourselves if diplomats can't talk about foreign leaders' wive's plastic surgery?

More importantly, however, the secrecy is necessary for keeping the American public wholly uninformed about what's happening in Afghanistan and Iraq. It already succeeded in keeping the public incredibly uninformed in the run-up to war, and it's more weariness than reason that has turned the public against the adventures.

So this vaunted network of spies and secret communications has done exactly what for our country? After 9 years in Afghanistan we find out that we've spent millions of dollars bribing and negotiating with an imposter. Yes, it is the secrecy that makes America strong. That's why Bush and Cheney knew about the WMD's when all the weapons inspectors said there weren't any.

Look, I understand the need for confidentiality, I'm legally and ethically obligated to keep discussions with clients from the public. Those rules, however, are established in public with judges and other authorities making decisions that can be appealed through the democratic process.

This new world of secrecy that exploded after 9-11 has no such checks. And every time we learn about what's being kept secret, it's usually irrelevant crap that we wasted money hiding, but it's often disgusting, horrific things that most sane people don't want done in their name---torture, rendition, indefinite imprisonment with no trial, absurdly failed nonsense in our wars...etc.

A Wikileaks before Iraq would have saved many, many lives and a hell of a lot of money. The case for war was essentially, "Trust us, we know all this stuff we have to keep secret from you, but we know what's going on."

How many times do people claiming to know what's going on have to miserably fail before we stop kissing their asses and defering to their rule?
 
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To make a positive argument that Wikileaks benefits democracy, observe some of the things we have learned:

http://www.juancole.com/2010/12/top-ten-middle-east-wikileaks-revelations-so-far.html

Just look at #2: Afghan President Hamid Karzai routinely pardons drug dealers and corrupt officials.

We are now apparantly in Afghanistan until 2014. Our goal, in so far as it can be discerned, is to create a stable democracy in that nation. The person we're resting our hopes on is an insane, corrupt, incompetnet whose brother (#3) is a drug dealer.

What is gained for "democracy" and "freedom" by hiding these facts from the American public? We're wasting money on a hopeless effort that only seems possible because information is being withheld.
 
So first of all, you acknowledge that you were wrong when you said it was "just" a dump.

He gives no context, no analysis, he just leaves it there out in the open for everyone to see. I'd call that a dump. It can be a dump and still be motivated by an agenda.

My post was in response to that claim. We can move onto other matters if you like, but before we start dancing from subject to subject, it should be acknowledged that Assange has a goal in all of this.
Yes, and his method is quite crude.

So this vaunted network of spies and secret communications has done exactly what for our country? After 9 years in Afghanistan we find out that we've spent millions of dollars bribing and negotiating with an imposter.
You can't expect perfect results. They did with what they had.

That's why Bush and Cheney knew about the WMD's when all the weapons inspectors said there weren't any.
We knew he had them at one point, and he had to be removed.

This new world of secrecy that exploded after 9-11 has no such checks.
Secrecy existed before. You know anything about the Cold War?

A Wikileaks before Iraq would have saved many, many lives and a hell of a lot of money.
Unsupported personal opinion. You would prefer a 2010 with the Husseins in full control of their country?

The case for war was essentially, "Trust us, we know all this stuff we have to keep secret from you, but we know what's going on."
And the public is equipped to wage through all the info and to make sense of it? It can act on it and prevent the bad people from getting access to it?

How many times do people claiming to know what's going on have to miserably fail before we stop kissing their asses and defering to their rule?
Again, you think every Dick and Jane on the street is better equipped to deal with the intelligence?
 
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What is gained for "democracy" and "freedom" by hiding these facts from the American public? We're wasting money on a hopeless effort that only seems possible because information is being withheld.

Maybe you should propose your ideas on how to deal with the situation to the Pentagon. You seem to know alot about how the world should work.
 
we keep certain information secret from the general public because releasing them to the wrong people can damage our missions and goals throughout the world.

international politics is a highly sensitive balancing act, that requires patient, context, and delicacy.

as far as I am concerned, the only secrets that deserve being leaked like this are ones that reveal criminal activity. releasing emails that simply embarrass world leaders is pathetic and childish. Wikileaks is turning into a glorified tabloid.
 
Yes, and his method is quite crude.

Crude but effective.

You can't expect perfect results. They did with what they had.

Perfect results, no, but good results aren't too much to ask considering the costs.

We knew he had them at one point, and he had to be removed.

You knew he had them because he funded them. But why did he *have* to be removed, while other dictators in countries without oil, such as mugabe and kim jong il, don't seem to *have* to be removed so badly?

Unsupported personal opinion. You would prefer a 2010 with the Husseins in full control of their country?

In retrospect, yes. It's difficult to see what the invasion has done for iraq, or for the region, or for the economies of the countries that had to fund the invasion.
 
In retrospect, yes. It's difficult to see what the invasion has done for iraq, or for the region, or for the economies of the countries that had to fund the invasion.

Aren't there enough threads about Iraq already?
 
Perfect results, no, but good results aren't too much to ask considering the costs. .

yeah, isn't it wonderful that we now know that Qhaddafi has a big-breasted blond nurse? its almost as big a story as Watergate.
 
He gives no context, no analysis, he just leaves it there out in the open for everyone to see. I'd call that a dump. It can be a dump and still be motivated by an agenda.

They spent months reviewing the materials before publishing them.

I don't think it's accurate to call it a "dump".

I understand (and have already responded to) your point about them publishing a lot of documents many of which were mundane. It's a different world and a different time than it was when Elsberg published the Pentagon Papers. Back then, there was no practical way of publishing huge texts.

I think if Wikileaks had only published selected documents, they would be accused of covering up things that didn't fit with their purported agenda--cherry picking what to put out there.

I don't know what Wikileaks' philosophy is, but it wouldn't be very consistent if they believe in the individual's right to decide what is and isn't important to know and then only published selected documents.
 
would Wikileaks NOT release info that could clearly put someone's life in real danger?

I doubt it.
 
as far as I am concerned, the only secrets that deserve being leaked like this are ones that reveal criminal activity. releasing emails that simply embarrass world leaders is pathetic and childish. Wikileaks is turning into a glorified tabloid.

Why is that? If publishing stuff that is politically embarrassing has a chilling effect on engaging in potentially embarrassing communiques, maybe that chilling effect is a good thing.

As others have pointed out, tawdry gossip doesn't have a place in diplomacy.
 
Why is that? If publishing stuff that is politically embarrassing has a chilling effect on engaging in potentially embarrassing communiques, maybe that chilling effect is a good thing.

risking the national security of the USA and of other countries is not worth it, if the pay out is simply revealing embarrasing communiques.

Wikileaks has become a tabloid.

"dude....did you hear about Qhaddafi's big-boobed nurse???"
 
would Wikileaks NOT release info that could clearly put someone's life in real danger?

I doubt it.

I think you are wrong then. Wikileaks engaged the NY Times and the UK Guardian to review all these documents before they were published and they redacted anything they felt could put someone's life in danger. In other words, it wasn't just Assange's opinion or judgement as to what might be dangerous. So for something that would be "clearly" dangerous means their judgement failed.

The military has agreed that no one was killed as the result of the first two rounds, so it seems they succeeded.

At the very least, can you point to an example of something that was "clearly" dangerous as published?
 
Am I the only one who thinks "National Security" it too nebulous a term?
 
risking the national security of the USA and of other countries is not worth it, if the pay out is simply revealing embarrasing communiques.

Wikileaks has become a tabloid.

"dude....did you hear about Qhaddafi's big-boobed nurse???"

How exactly was the national security of the USA placed at risk?

It sounds like you're arguing two contrary positions at the same time: 1) the leaked cables were so insignificant that Wikileaks "has become a tabloid", and 2)the leaked cables were so significant that Wikileaks has put our national security at risk.
 
On the other hand I'm glad to see you've changed your position from the OP:

they are releasing countless secret documents and intellectual property of the United States. they are in possession of stolen goods, which is a crime.

they are releasing classified documentation which they have no right to possess or even see. this is a crime.

I don't know if somehow the USA is responsible for the cyber-attack on Wikileaks, but I would not mind it if we were.

there is a legal way to get government documents, even classified ones from the USA. its called the Freedom of Information Act. it does wonders.

however, Wikileaks chooses to go another route. an illegal one.

and it does appear that their agenda may indeed be to harm the United States and our allies.

they are an enemy of the USA.

To one that allows for the possibility that leaking secret documents can at least sometimes be justified:

as far as I am concerned, the only secrets that deserve being leaked like this are ones that reveal criminal activity.
 

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