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The Great Thermate Debate

Sorry buddy, Aluminum does not glow bright yellow in the day. At 1220F, it stays metallic. That means silvery. lol!

Edited by kmortis: 
Removed personal attack

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/aluminum/alumpics/lg_molten-lg.jpg

Out of all places to find a good picture of molten aluminum is from that nutcase Dr. Judy Wood.

How about you retract you're bold statement of denial, buddy?

Also check out some other pictures on her website that shows aluminum glowing:

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/aluminum/Aluminum_Glows.html
 
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First of all, why are you saying this? NIST did indeed mention the corroded steel in NCSTAR 1-3C, and also pointed at Vander Voort's 2003 presentation of his portion of the Worcester Polytechnic team's findings. If you want to split hairs, it's true that NIST didn't investigate the steel, but it was well aware that the WPI group did, and they deliberately included mention of their findings in the Towers report. The knowledge is not lacking, and the questions behind how the corrosion occurred was hardly ignored. It was handled by the WPI group, and NIST clearly knew about this.

And as I've pointed out multiple times over in this very thread, the Worcester group was the one who picked up the task of studying the corrosion. I've given the researchers names - Barnett, Biederman, Sisson, Sullivan, Vander Voort, and outside of WPI, Banovich, Gayle, Foecke, etc. That's more than enough information for someone to track down the various writeups they've published regarding the sulfidation corrosion on the WTC steel, and it's known about by NIST. Again, they relied on those groups findings for the information they put in the Towers report.

You truthers cannot keep spinning things to make it appear as though the corrosion went unstudied. As we here have been trying to bang into your heads for years now, it's well studied, it's well categorized, and it's specifically because of the temperature ranges indicated by those studies as well as the microstructures left behind and noted by the WPI group that we know how the corrosion occurred. It was a sulfidation attack that took on the order of hours to days, and occurred at temperatures well below the reaction temp of thermate. This is known. Do a lookup on any of those search terms above and read their work. But please stop trying to make it out as though the erosion was unstudied. That's plain wrong.



Nice try, but NIST are the ones who should have done it, and you all know it. Don't play pass the puck with me!
 
Edited by kmortis: 
Removed personal attack in quoted material and post

I did not say aluminum doesen't glow, I said it doesen't glow bright yellow at temperatures of normal office fires.

No wonder you people think your never wrong, you only read what you think you see.
Very funny!
 
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Nice try, but NIST are the ones who should have done it, and you all know it. Don't play pass the puck with me!

If the mechanism is adequately explained by someone else, why would NIST waste their time and money explaining it again instead of just quoting someone?
 
Nice try, I don't speculate. The teperature is way over the degree of a normal office fire. Eagar said the fires did not get "much hotter than 650C"

This is a distortion. Here is the direct quote from Eagar's article:
It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke. Soot is generated by incompletely burned fuel; hence, the WTC fire was fuel rich—hardly surprising with 90,000 L of jet fuel available. Factors such as flame volume and quantity of soot decrease the radiative heat loss in the fire, moving the temperature closer to the maximum of 1,000°C. However, it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range. All reports that the steel melted at 1,500°C are using imprecise terminology at best.
Also:
It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.[SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE] This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.
Eagar wasn't saying 650 degrees C was the max temp. He was actually putting it at around 800 or so; 650 was a comparative temp used to indicate the point at which the sort of steel used in the WTC would lose half its strength. But regardless of what he wrote, people need to keep in mind that what Eagar wrote was composed in 2002, well before NIST conducted it's studies and made a better determination of what the fire temperatures were. Eagar was correctly doing a general analysis using first principles, but he did not conduct the experiments that ultimately determined what the temperatures were.

Again, you need to actually study your material. We know what Thomas Eagar said, and we've discussed his writings before. You are not accurately representing what he was trying to say.
 
Sound like bottle time for you, and I did not say aluminum doesen't glow, I said it doesen't glow bright yellow at temperatures of normal office fires.

No wonder you people think your never wrong, you only read what you think you see.
Very funny!

Actually you did, liar. You told me:

Sorry buddy, Aluminum does not glow bright yellow in the day.

Actually you're wrong about it glowing bright yellow, as indicated on this chart:

http://www.westyorkssteel.com/images/htchar1.gif

1,200*C = 2,192*F

The fires inside the Towers were well above 2,000*F.

We only read because we actually research the facts & evidence. Unlike you lazy Truthers who don't do anything but bitch & moan @ us for being right.
 
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Nice try, but NIST are the ones who should have done it, and you all know it. Don't play pass the puck with me!

Umm... WPI is one of the research institutes NIST often contracts for metallurgy and fire studies research. Do a Google scholar search for all the studies they've conducted together that have nothing to do with the World Trade Center. What I was referring to above was a distinction between the overall organizer of the various research projects that lead up to the NCSTAR reports and the actual executors of the research. Which goes to prove my point: NIST most certainly did not ignore the corrosion, they simply knew that WPI was already on it. This wasn't a case of NIST ignoring things and some opportunistic research team picking up the supposed slack, it's a case of NIST and WPI dividing tasks.

You really don't know much about how the studies were conducted, do you?
 
Looks like he ran away from the truth that aluminum does glow bright yellow. :rolleyes:

P.T Barnum was right when he coined the phrase: "There's a sucker born every minute."
 
Black smoke indicates an oxygen starved fire. C'mon dude.

cressonfire570.jpg
 
Black smoke indicates an oxygen starved fire. C'mon dude. You must be confused with the aluminum oxide type, white smoke at the base of the towers just before the collapse.

Black smoke means cooling temperatures, as the fire does not have enough oxygen to progress in heat.

Ta Da!

BZZZTTTTT!!! Wrong. On EVERY account.

1-Black smoke in indictive of the type of material burning. Black smoke usually indicates hydrocarbons, like plastics and oils.
2-An oxygen-starved fire will produce white smoke, because the fire would be going out.

See here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ7B...D11706678&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

And these pictures.

BlackSmoke2.jpg


BlackSmoke1.jpg


Both hydrocarbon fires. Both not going out, and neither are oxygen starved.

Do you think that 100 deg. C = 2000 deg. f?
 
"No sign of molten steel-type temperatures here, and certainly not ones lasting for months."

No?....So if the surface temp was APPROX.(NOTE THAT WORD) 2000F which is about 1000C, how hot do you think they would be under the debris?

Much much hotter, which would put us close to molten steel, are you deniying the molten metal? You have seen it pouring out of the south towwer right? Oh yeah, just because NIST said it was "probably" aluminum, it must be, without even testing for it.

"halfed baked farce"

No, it is not ABOUT, it's off by abour 200 degrees.

You will also notice, that the temperatures shown were around 1300-1400 deg. F.

Also, not even CLOSE to melting steel temperatures.

Do you know there are many different metals that melt at or below 1,000 deg. F that would have been found in abundance in the towers?

Lead and tin being two of them.
 
Are you saying that black smoke does not indicate cooling temps? My dad is a ret. FF, would you like to hear it from him, or how about Erik Laywer? How about Capt. Russo, who said he saw molten steel flowing like lava from a volcano.

Wait, I forgot, that's all made up.

LMAO!

Oh, yes, please do. I would LOVE to see this.

Erik Lawyer is a liar, as I have shown. He is also a disgrace to his department as a whole.

Capt. Russo saw molten metal of some sort. He cannot conclude from the looks of a molten metal what it is made of.
 
Molten metal. There's no way he could have identified it as steel just by looking at it. Molten metal would not be an extraordinary sight with a fire. There are plenty of building materials with melting points far below the temperatures a fire can reach.

Beside which and what the conspiracy kooks can't get their heads round is that metal removed from the heat source doesn't remain molten.
The moment its poured it hardens.
 
I guess he more prevalent question is, why was there not a single instance during the entire period - in which the building was evacuated, while people inside the buildings before they collapsed, while firefighters arrived in the impact regions of WTC 2, and such - where people reported anything looking like this:

thermitedemo.jpg


Inside the building?

Not even the survivors in the stairwells ever reported the conspicuous presence of ultra bright and white hot sparks like this:

thermitedemo.jpg


The entire time the events took place. I suppose that's more telling than anything. Remember, truthers are afterall contending this demolition was done in an occupied building.
 

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