Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

Victoria's (dirty) secret

About the highlighted part.... the raw number doesn't tell us much. Is it 39 cases out of 40 or is it 39 cases out of 1 million.

Based on the verbiage, I surmise that this comes from a single crime laboratory's contamination log, the lab being that of the state of Victoria. According to this article, they were looking at 7000 cases. Possibly that is the relevant number.

 

[Withnail1969]

What do you think Amanda and RS were looking for with the two night lites? The clasp was under the pillow, under the body, they looked, but couldn't find it.....

How on earth could they have lost track of it given that at one point Raffaele was holding it in his hand? You're telling me that in a tiny room like Meredith's they just gave up on searching for the one item that they knew would sink them?

I sometimes drop contact lenses on the floor which are tiny and transparent, and I always find them eventually. It's ludicrous to imagine they somehow 'couldn't find' the bra clasp. Of course you can find it - just divide the floor into sections and search until you do. If they couldn't find the bra clasp, they couldn't have done the cleanup.

 

[Justinian2]

Philosophically tangential:

If the police and prosecutors could be held accountable for their crimes against AK and RS as ordinary citizens, they could be charged with ten thousand years in jail for charges including kidnapping, libel, extortion, theft and destruction of private property.

But we ignore their crimes because police activity at least stops the formation of bands of criminals unless the criminals are the police…

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

How on earth could they have lost track of it given that at one point Raffaele was holding it in his hand? You're telling me that in a tiny room like Meredith's they just gave up on searching for the one item that they knew would sink them?

I sometimes drop contact lenses on the floor which are tiny and transparent, and I always find them eventually. It's ludicrous to imagine they somehow 'couldn't find' the bra clasp. Of course you can find it - just divide the floor into sections and search until you do. If they couldn't find the bra clasp, they couldn't have done the cleanup.

Your probally joking but I'll explain just in case... Regardless if it was cut or ripped apart, unlike your contact, they probally didn't know it was missing or had dropped off under the body once they set Meredith back down untill they saw the bra with the clasp missing later. They looked everywhere but under the body again, not wishing to touch her any more. Elementry.....

 

[Withnail1969]

Your probally joking but I'll explain just in case... Regardless if it was cut or ripped apart, unlike your contact, they probally didn't know it was missing or had dropped off under the body once they set Meredith back down untill they saw the bra with the clasp missing later. They looked everywhere but under the body again, not wishing to touch her any more. Elementry.....

It's hard to understand what you're trying to say. You seem to be saying they knew the clasp was under the body, but didn't want to move it. Why? To killers like them, the body would just be meat. Why would they be squeamish about moving the body for a few seconds to avoid going to jail?

Why did they carry out the cleanup if they were unwilling to get the clasp from underneath the body? If they knew the clasp would nail them, why bother?

Was the clasp even under the body anyway? I thought it was under the bed. Can you provide a citation?

 

[Justinian2]

Your probally joking but I'll explain just in case... Regardless if it was cut or ripped apart, unlike your contact, they probally didn't know it was missing or had dropped off under the body once they set Meredith back down untill they saw the bra with the clasp missing later. They looked everywhere but under the body again, not wishing to touch her any more. Elementry.....

If you are going to pretend to be Sherlock Holmes, at least get your English correct!

Secondly, you're assuming that they stopped looking for evidence once the body was removed.

 

[Amazer]

Based on the verbiage, I surmise that this comes from a single crime laboratory's contamination log, the lab being that of the state of Victoria. According to this article, they were looking at 7000 cases. Possibly that is the relevant number.

Okay... so we're roughly talking about 0.6% of the cases studied.

Which means that in about 99.4% of the cases the correct results were obtained.

I really don't think this does much to bolster your case for Amanda

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

It's hard to understand what you're trying to say. You seem to be saying they knew the clasp was under the body, but didn't want to move it. Why? To killers like them, the body would just be meat. Why would they be squeamish about moving the body for a few seconds to avoid going to jail?

Why did they carry out the cleanup if they were unwilling to get the clasp from underneath the body? If they knew the clasp would nail them, why bother?

Was the clasp even under the body anyway? I thought it was under the bed. Can you provide a citation?

Wrong - they didn't even know the clasp was missing untill later when they noticed it wasn't on the bra - that is why they got Amanda's lite from her room and began the search, they had no idea where it was and they didn't find it. They probally looked under the body somewhat, but it was under the pillow as well and that would require moving the body again, I think they decided against that, the clasp may not be there anyway. And yes, the clasp was under the body and under the pillow.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

If you are going to pretend to be Sherlock Holmes, at least get your English correct!

Secondly, you're assuming that they stopped looking for evidence once the body was removed.

Not even close, were talking about Amanda and RS - you're talking about something different, the body isn't removed till the following day.......

 

[Withnail1969]

Wrong - they didn't even know the clasp was missing untill later when they noticed it wasn't on the bra - that is why they got Amanda's lite from her room and began the search, they had no idea where it was and they didn't find it. They probally looked under the body somewhat, but it was under the pillow as well and that would require moving the body again, I think they decided against that, the clasp may not be there anyway. And yes, the clasp was under the body and under the pillow.

They could not have avoided noticing the clasp was 'missing' because the prosecution's scenario requires Raffaele to hold the clasp in his hand, probably for some time, by the bent metal part to allow the transfer of DNA. (And the DNA of 3 other people but let's ignore that).

It therefore follows they would know pretty much where it was.

Why would they not get the clasp from under the body? If they are willing to murder, surely that's nothing? Why did they carry out the cleanup knowing the clasp would nail them? It just doesn't make any sense.

edit to add - i asked you for a citation. was the clasp actually under the body? If so, why wasn't it retrieved by forensics when the body was taken away? How on Earth can you claim to know where the clasp was at the time of the murder when it wasn't recovered for 46 days?

 

[LondonJohn]

Okay... so we're roughly talking about 0.6% of the cases studied.

Which means that in about 99.4% of the cases the correct results were obtained.

I really don't think this does much to bolster your case for Amanda

No, this is not a case of 39 out of 7,000. The articles clearly stated that the 7,000 cases in Victoria where DNA evidence was used were the total number of cases between 1988 and 2008. However, the "39 cases of contamination" number is explicitly referred to as occurring during the period between "late 1999" and 2003. And the context of the articles makes it pretty clear that these 39 cases were not discovered as a result of a thorough investigation into contamination - I'm guessing that instead they were discovered only when there was unequivocally clear and blatant contamination taking place (such as the example given where DNA from a rape victim in a totally unconnected case showed up on a toddler's clothing).

And all the while, we're supposed to accept that there is not, and never has been, a single incident of contamination in Stefanoni's laboratory - because its employees say that's the case, and that should be proof enough!

 

[quadraginta]

They could not have avoided noticing the clasp was 'missing' because the prosecution's scenario requires Raffaele to hold the clasp in his hand, probably for some time, by the bent metal part to allow the transfer of DNA. (And the DNA of 3 other people but let's ignore that).

It therefore follows they would know pretty much where it was.

Why would they not get the clasp from under the body? If they are willing to murder, surely that's nothing? Why did they carry out the cleanup knowing the clasp would nail them? It just doesn't make any sense.

edit to add - i asked you for a citation. was the clasp actually under the body? If so, why wasn't it retrieved by forensics when the body was taken away? How on Earth can you claim to know where the clasp was at the time of the murder when it wasn't recovered for 46 days?

Maybe they didn't think tiny wire shapes could accumulate significant amounts of DNA. Other people have been known to harbor similar beliefs.

After all, they were obviously unconcerned about the gritty, abrasive surface of the bra itself, which should have scoured off pounds of incriminating evidence while being handled.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

They could not have avoided noticing the clasp was 'missing' because the prosecution's scenario requires Raffaele to hold the clasp in his hand, probably for some time, by the bent metal part to allow the transfer of DNA. (And the DNA of 3 other people but let's ignore that).

It therefore follows they would know pretty much where it was.

Why would they not get the clasp from under the body? If they are willing to murder, surely that's nothing? Why did they carry out the cleanup knowing the clasp would nail them? It just doesn't make any sense.

I've never said they did the murder at all - but they did the staging because they were somewhat responsible - Amanda let Rudy in, she got into a fight with Meredith, Rudy jumped in, Amanda ran away to Raffs. I'm not going into it anymore as I have before, but the clasp was in Raffs hand only as long as it takes to rip it apart or cut it off, the clasp didn't fall off until he yanked the bra off from around her and he tossed it by her feet. It was later when they inspected said bra they noticed the clasp missing and began their frantic search.

Edit to add - If you have no idea where the casp was initially found or when, then I'm sorry, you need to review the case much further before you comment on it.

 

[Withnail1969]

I've never said they did the murder at all - but they did the staging because they were somewhat responsible - Amanda let Rudy in, she got into a fight with Meredith, Rudy jumped in, Amanda ran away to Raffs. I'm not going into it anymore as I have before, but the clasp was in Raffs hand only as long as it takes to rip it apart or cut it off, the clasp didn't fall off until he yanked the bra off from around her and he tossed it by her feet. It was later when they inspected said bra they noticed the clasp missing and began their frantic search.

Edit to add - If you have no idea where the casp was initially found or when, then I'm sorry, you need to review the case much further before you comment on it.

But you haven't explained how the DNA got onto the bent wire of the bra clasp.

You also haven't explained why the bra clasp was not found by forensics if it was under the body as you claim it was.

'OK guys, let's get the body out of here. Make sure we're videoing everything.

Wait a minute! What's this? A bra clasp! Let's test it for DNA!'

Why did this scenario not happen?

 

[shuttlt]

How on earth could they have lost track of it given that at one point Raffaele was holding it in his hand? You're telling me that in a tiny room like Meredith's they just gave up on searching for the one item that they knew would sink them?

I sometimes drop contact lenses on the floor which are tiny and transparent, and I always find them eventually. It's ludicrous to imagine they somehow 'couldn't find' the bra clasp. Of course you can find it - just divide the floor into sections and search until you do. If they couldn't find the bra clasp, they couldn't have done the cleanup.

Can't they just have been stressed and tired and forgotten it? Assuming they are the killers they'd had the sort of day where the odd bit of stupidity/forgetfullness would be understandable, no?

 

[Withnail1969]

Maybe they didn't think tiny wire shapes could accumulate significant amounts of DNA. Other people have been known to harbor similar beliefs.

After all, they were obviously unconcerned about the gritty, abrasive surface of the bra itself, which should have scoured off pounds of incriminating evidence while being handled.

But according to Sherlock Holmes' scenario, they were concerned enough about finding the bra clasp that they brought in Amanda's lamp to help find it.

Then they inexplicably lost interest in it, despite carrying out one of the best crime scene cleanups in forensic history.

Raffaele had to have held the clasp in his hand for some time. Such brilliant and ruthless criminals are hardly likely to forget such an important item.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

five points on contamination

Okay... so we're roughly talking about 0.6% of the cases studied.

Which means that in about 99.4% of the cases the correct results were obtained.

I really don't think this does much to bolster your case for Amanda

Amazer,

First, I think that LondonJohn makes some good points. Second, one has to consider that negative controls are not expected to ferret out every instance of contamination. Contamination is sometimes a sporadic event. Third, this result calls into question Dr. Stefanoni's claim of no contamination in seven years (I just noticed that LondonJohn also made this point). It is not even known whether the Rome lab kept a log of contamination events, to the best of my knowledge. Fourth, you are ignoring the fact that Meredith's profile was in the low copy number range. Both RoseMontague and I have given citations that indicate the greater risk of contamination when dealing with samples in the LCN range than in ordinary profiling. Fifth, some commenters elsewhere have implied that only OJ Simpson and Scott Peterson have claimed DNA contamination. I have previously responded with a comment full of links to other cases, but I find the links I provided today augment my understanding.

 

[el buscador]

But you haven't explained how the DNA got onto the bent wire of the bra clasp.

You also haven't explained why the bra clasp was not found by forensics if it was under the body as you claim it was.

'OK guys, let's get the body out of here. Make sure we're videoing everything.

Wait a minute! What's this? A bra clasp! Let's test it for DNA!'

Why did this scenario not happen?

Is there video of finding the clasp the first time, after the body and pillow were moved? If there is, what did this video show? That the forensic guy picked it up off the floor and then set it right back down?

 

[Justinian2]

Not even close, were talking about Amanda and RS - you're talking about something different, the body isn't removed till the following day.......

Mini Sherlock, your powers of deduction didn't even understand what I said.
Perhaps you should keep your sharp retorts to yourself until you understand the language better.

1) You know as well as I that the bra clasp was main piece of evidence that connected RS to the crime.
2) You also know that that piece of evidence was NOT handled in a competent fashion.
3) You probably also know that when someone tries to defend incompetence that they look stupid.

Yes, the guilters have a VERY difficult job...

 

[Chris C]

Yes, they would be entitled to the standard 20 or 30 Euros/day spent in jail, that's it.

The 40 Euros a day is automatic. They will literally get additionaly sued if Knox/Sollecito are set free. That 40 Euros a day wont pay the lawyer fees that have nearly bankrupted both families.