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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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How can you tell - by your own admission her testimony is unknown to you ?

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Huh? Is this like last night when I was supposed to remember that you had cited Massei even though you didn't give him credit for the citation?

Having read Amanda's full court testimony, I understand the intent and meaning of it, I don't recall each individual word or sentence. Here is an excerpt from your recent posts:

"Very good, Mary H....It was good advice....Maybe I am guessing again."

Does that represent your intent and meaning?
 
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You start with the wrong premise, p, which is no doubt what LJ is getting at by asking you for a citation.

Amanda did not tell her mother Patrick was innocent. And Kaosium is right. Nobody cared what Amanda OR her mother would have to say about Patrick at that time.

If they had, all they would have to do was listen to the taped conversation.

Mary H

Shall we address your recent statements before you take on the job of speaking for others or interpreting AK's words - you appear not to have fully grasped some basic points regarding her testimony.

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Transferred from where? How?
This spot of DNA source must be very rare: Sollecito didn't live inside the room nor inside the house, the only DNA of Sollecito was found on a cigarette butt in the kitchen, his activities in the hous were minimal and had little occasion to transfer DNA on items: in fact no DNA from him was found.
And how likely and how possible is it, is it to transfer a flake of skin cells from one microscopic location, to another microscopic location, just randomly, and with a kick?
First of all, he surely left DNA on various spots on the outside of the door. He was trying to force that door - that's quite an activity and sure method to leave lots of DNA. This alone is a contamination path probable enough. From the get-go lots of cops touched that door and its handle. One of them moved the clasp at some point. I'm sure he was not concerned with proper safeguards, looking at the trashed room. Watching the cops collecting the clasp I'm sure they weren't concerned about contamination. Their white robes - only a cargo cult science. It's enough that one of them touched the door before.

And this is just one, the most probable contamination route. There are others. We know that Raffaele left DNA in the kitchen, where he ate on Nov 1. He was in all of the rooms on the Nov 2 morning.
We know Stefanoni was unorthodox about the lab rules, and lots of his DNA were already tested in her lab before - another possibility.
LCN amount of RS DNA is typical for intermediary transfer, it doesn't correspond at all to incredibly forceful way that bra was handled.
Lastly we know it was contaminated, because apart from RS there were unidentified alleles of other people.

So there are more then enough problems with that piece of evidence to even consider it seriously.


Katody you are the one who accepts believing all blood stains and the bloody heel left on the bathroom floor disappeared completely just by acident as Amanda dragged the rug and cleaned them.
This is not what I believe.
 
<snip>

Since you asked me now, though, I'd say firstly that you're being facetious in claiming that Antony was referring to being able to see the actual double-helix strands of DNA themselves passing between gloved and bra clasp.


Antony said, "We can see the bra clasp being contaminated right in front of our eyes on the video."

There are very few ways to interpret this statement which do not sound facetious, because it is a patently false statement. We can see nothing of the sort, and the claim is ridiculous on its own merits. It needs no additional help.

And, that having been said, I'd broadly agree with Antony that the amount of direct contact with the metal parts of the bra clasp (including, unbelievably, rubbing at one point....) means that anything that was subsequently discovered on that metal hook cannot fail to be viewed with anything other than suspicion about its evidential value.


Why?

I could just as easily say that there is no reason to presume their gloves were contaminated with any other DNA. There does not seem to have been an abundance of DNA of any sort randomly situated around the apartment to be transferred in the first place, and the application of considerable wishful thinking is required to make the unqualified assertion that Sollecito's DNA in particular was transferred to that particular location at that particular instant.

By the way, if Sollecito's fingers really did make contact with the tiny metal hook on the clasp, this would clearly imply that he'd handled the bra in other areas while trying to either access the clasp mechanism or trying to pull the strap apart. Maybe you can help explain why Sollecito's DNA wasn't therefore found on any other part of the bra or the clasp area. Would you suggest that the forensics team were negligent in not finding it? Or would you suggest that Sollecito managed to deposit DNA on a smooth metal clasp but not on the rough (and far more receptive-to-DNA) material of the bra?


I'll pass on the interesting assumption that a rigid structure, such as a small wire shape, is less likely to collect DNA than a soft cloth surface. Perhaps we do not share a common sense of the term "rough". It isn't one I would apply to most women's undergarments. It is not needful for Sollecito to have grabbed any more than the clasp itself in any case.

I am looking at one of Mrs. qg's bras as I type this. There are three sets of two loops for adjustment. They are completely uncovered on the outside. The set of two hooks is indeed barely covered on the outside, but only by a very short tab of cloth which also serves to grasp and pull the hook end of the clasp. I believe this construction is relatively standard.

We are told that Sollecito was, shall we say, inexperienced as far as intimate relationships with women until his whirlwind romance with Knox. It is not unreasonable to think that he was less than adept with a bra fastener. He could have grasped it by the hook side of the clasp, pulled unsuccessfully trying to get it unfastened (an experience familiar to many young men) and then used his knife to sever it in frustration (hopefully less familiar). We can safely surmise that someone in such a circumstance as undressing a recently murdered corpse might feel under a certain amount of pressure.

So Sollecito could easily have grabbed the hook side of the bra clasp, yanked on it without success, and then cut the strap with his other hand, never contacting any other part of the bra, but quite firmly coming into contact with the hooks.

Is this possible scenario any more incredible than Antony's assertion that we could see the contamination happening in the video?

This is what he proposed, and apparently you concur.
 
Mary H

Shall we address your recent statements before you take on the job of speaking for others or interpreting AK's words - you appear not to have fully grasped some basic points regarding her testimony.


You are too funny, platonov. Unfortunately, most posters here probably don't have the time to amuse themselves reading all of Amanda's court testimony to see what you left out of your quotes, but it won't take long for them to digest this much:

Court testimony, PMF version:

AK: Well, it's true that after several days in prison, I did come to realize that what I had imagined was nothing but imagination, not a confusion of reality. So I realized that he wasn't guilty of these things, and I felt really really bad that he had been arrested.

CP: Why didn't you tell the penetentiary police?

LG: She told them, she wrote it!


Court testimony, platonov version:

AK: Well, it's true that after several days in prison, I did come to realize that what I had imagined was nothing but imagination, not a confusion of reality. So I realized that he wasn't guilty of these things, and I felt really really bad that he had been arrested.

CP: Why didn't you tell the penitentiary police?

At this stage LG interrupts.


There's a whole lot more where that came from, which I will be happy to provide if asked. This entire question is moot, however. Why are the lawyers even asking Amanda why she didn't tell the police what she said to her mother on the 10th, when the police had that information already, from listening in on the conversation?
 
You start with the wrong premise, p, which is no doubt what LJ is getting at by asking you for a citation.

Amanda did not tell her mother Patrick was innocent. And Kaosium is right. Nobody cared what Amanda OR her mother would have to say about Patrick at that time.

If they had, all they would have to do was listen to the taped conversation.


No Mary H

Lets deal with this first - laughing it off won't work.

Although your offering to quote to me the testimony, that I have just quoted from to refute completely your (above) statement, now that is funny :)

I did kindly advise you yesterday to do some research before contradicting platonov ;)
[Yea I know, nobody likes a wiseguy]

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You also believe the blood mark by the big toe on the bloody print was left by a second toe that shifted from expected location and merged with the big toe due to some dynamic process.

Machiavelli, this is actually quite interesting that you disbelieve that toes can move and they can form quite different configuration in a dynamic print than in a static one.

I urge you to look at a photo of one luminol print, found in Amanda's room. I'm sure you believe it's Amanda's print. And I bet you have it on your hard drive.

Look closely and note the positions of the toes.

Note how some of them - oh, the horror - merge together!

Then open yourself a pic of Amanda's reference print.

Look closely again and compare the positions of the toes.

You'll notice how the two that were spread apart farthest away from each other somehow... merged!

You'll notice the second toe, that was away from the big toe when relaxed is much closer and in different position.



Well, what can I say. Take a good look. :)
good night :)
 
simple gifts

That might work for you but not for the court or indeed AK - they cared enough to arrest PL.
If you are ever in court and use that excuse you will catch a very severe cold.

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platonov,

The police listened in to Amanda's conversation with her mother (whether this conversation counts as another gift or as something ILE took without asking is a matter for another day). Because we know that they did nothing, we know that they did not care what she said. Some things are simple.
 
No Mary H

Lets deal with this first - laughing it off won't work.

Although your offering to quote to me the testimony, that I have just quoted from to refute completely your (above) statement, now that is funny :)

I did kindly advise you yesterday to do some research before contradicting platonov ;)
[Yea I know, nobody likes a wiseguy]

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The excerpts you provided from Amanda's testimony do not say that Amanda told her mother Patrick was innocent. Do you have any excerpts from the testimony that directly say -- not through someone else's rewording -- that Amanda explicitly told her mother on the 10th that Patrick was innocent of committing the crime? How about a transcript of the actual conversation between them?
 
platonov,

The police listened in to Amanda's conversation with her mother (whether this conversation counts as another gift or as something ILE took without asking is a matter for another day). Because we know that they did nothing, we know that they did not care what she said. Some things are simple.

Halides1

We have already dealt with this issue (in general) very recently.
[and it was probably covered several times earlier in the thread]

Kaosium may have forgotten or misinterpreted it but you were involved in the exchange IIRC.

If you don't accept the argument that cops are skeptical of the changing stories of murder suspects then go with " all cops are ******** " if you want. They are not even mutually exclusive !

The point is hardly obscure or pedantic - its simplicity itself. Once AK names PL and she is considered a serious suspect, the cops are always going to err on the side of caution.

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The excerpts you provided from Amanda's testimony do not say that Amanda told her mother Patrick was innocent. Do you have any excerpts from the testimony that directly say -- not through someone else's rewording -- that Amanda explicitly told her mother on the 10th that Patrick was innocent of committing the crime? How about a transcript of the actual conversation between them?

Mary H

Stop already :)

You start with the wrong premise, p, which is no doubt what LJ is getting at by asking you for a citation.

2 Amanda did not tell her mother Patrick was innocent.

And Kaosium is right. Nobody cared what Amanda OR her mother would have to say about Patrick at that time.

4 If they had, all they would have to do was listen to the taped conversation.


Do you even see that your 2nd and 4th 'lines' here contradict each other.

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What do you mean by strong? Generic traces of DNA are very easy to create. The alleles are very easy to create. They can be residual from before, can be contextual (from Amanda, Meredith) or created by subsequent deposit, or can be artifacts and derive from DNA degradation after exposure to agents (like bacteria).
But an entire profile coincident with Sollecito's, including 17 loci from a y-haplotype, is not easy to create. It is not possible to produce this DNA profile without cells from Raffaele Sollecito. Several dozens of skinn cells. They are there, and they are there, they are information, whatever else you look for o f you find and on the bra, this fact won't change the datum, they won't make more explainable or more innocent the fact that there is no explanation for Sollecito's DNA to be ther: the profile is there, why is it there?

17 loci or 15? How many are disputed. Maybe you could cite that.
Do you know why they are disputed?
The reason why is because they only did one test and altered the result to fit the profile. Rather than run a 2nd test to see if the disputed alleles got a different result.
As 1 quick example. Lets say a loci came back with 3 numbers rather than 2. Rather than run a 2nd test to see if one of the numbers dropped out, the lab removed the number or numbers that didn't match the profile of sollecito. Thus they would get the match they needed for that loci. They did that atleast 6 times for Sollecito supposed profile rather than run a 2nd test. At least thats the way I understand it, maybe you have a better explanation. However, if just 1 loci doesn't match sollecito's profile then its not his profile. Yet we got 6 loci that clearly dont match his profile.

Earlier when you claimed there was no other dna on the clasp, should have led to you to believe that Sollecito's DNA wasn't on the clasp. After all, if no one elses dna is on the clasp then that profile they are trying to say is Sollecito's would have to belong to someone else.

Now as for your assumption that there is no way to explain how else Sollecito's DNA could be on there. Could that not be said about the other 3 unidentified peoples DNA thats on the clasp. Or are you gonna deny there is someone elses unidentified DNA on the clasp. Which then make that profile not Sollecito's.
 
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If this subject matter is of interest to you, quadraginta, the Internet should have the statistics you seek. Research would probably lead you to some colorful pictures of JA Henckels, Sabatier and Spyderco knives, too.


Why would I need to look at pictures. I already know what they look like, and if I were to suddenly suffer an inexplicable bout of uncertainty I can look at the real thing without leaving my apartment.

My life experience tells me that most knife murderers dispose of their weapons after using them to commit murder. To humor you, I asked three men I know and they also believe most knife murderers dispose of their weapons after using them to commit murder. Two of them said, "Oh yeah, you gotta get rid of it," and two of them said, "You throw it in the river." ;)


This is argument by common knowledge? "Everybody knows!"?

Why would someone who used a knife to kill someone keep that knife on their person or in their home where it could be found by authorities?

Murder weapons can have one of several dispositions. They can be left at the scene, they can be removed from the scene and discarded, or they can be removed from the scene and kept. You are suggesting that it is unlikely that a murderer would keep the weapon if they chose to remove it from the scene. You have no reason beyond some personal conviction and the agreement of a few acquaintances to think that this is true.

My feeling is that criminals are frequently uncovered by their failure to discard a weapon. Perhaps not as often as they do discard it, but certainly often enough to make it rather problematic to base a priori assertions on the claim that they would not.
 
Halides1

We have already dealt with this issue (in general) very recently.
[and it was probably covered several times earlier in the thread]

Kaosium may have forgotten or misinterpreted it but you were involved in the exchange IIRC.

If you don't accept the argument that cops are skeptical of the changing stories of murder suspects then go with " all cops are ******** " if you want. They are not even mutually exclusive !

The point is hardly obscure or pedantic - its simplicity itself. Once AK names PL and she is considered a serious suspect, the cops are always going to err on the side of caution.

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If that's how you feel, then what difference does it make what Amanda told her mother?
 
Mary H

Stop already :)

Quote:
You start with the wrong premise, p, which is no doubt what LJ is getting at by asking you for a citation.

2 Amanda did not tell her mother Patrick was innocent.

And Kaosium is right. Nobody cared what Amanda OR her mother would have to say about Patrick at that time.

4 If they had, all they would have to do was listen to the taped conversation.


Do you even see that your 2nd and 4th 'lines' here contradict each other.

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No, I don't see how they contradict each other. If you can, I would love to have you explain it to me.
 
If that's how you feel, then what difference does it make what Amanda told her mother?

A year (or 26) of jailtime apparently.

Haven't you another issue to resolve before speaking for halides1 ?

My feelings (like your interpretations) are not considered by the Italian courts.

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<snip>
This is argument by common knowledge? "Everybody knows!"?


Why, what a surprise! The real quadraginta is back, after being replaced for a brief interval by the eyelash-batting, imploring quadraginta, who asked innocently,

"Why do you believe that?....I am quite honestly curious."

You have no reason beyond some personal conviction and the agreement of a few acquaintances to think that this is true.


That's basically what I said when I said, "As far as I know..."

My feeling is that criminals are frequently uncovered by their failure to discard a weapon. Perhaps not as often as they do discard it, but certainly often enough to make it rather problematic to base a priori assertions on the claim that they would not.


P-e-d-a-n-t-r-y.
 
Originally I thought it was cut but after taking a closer look at the photo using Charlie's link, I am convinced it was torn off for the following reasons. In the photo below, note the clean cut edges of the bra material. Also note the stitch lines that run parallel to the edge of the material. There seems to be an edging piece missing on the bra. The location where the clasp material attaches to the bra also has a parallel stitch line. Apprently the stiching threads on the edging and claps material were the first to tear. The bra material is different than the clasp material, so if the bra was cut off I would expect that there would be a piece of clasp material on the bra or vice versa. For greater resolution, go to Charlie's link and checkout figure 6.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Me...Ron_Hendry.pdf

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_436054cf2b408ceab2.jpg[/qimg]

You got it. I had read somewhere that the clasp was cut off, and I assumed that was the case. But Hendry applied a methodology he has developed over the years, and he came up with many significant observations and insights that check out when one examines the photos closely.
 
Halides1

We have already dealt with this issue (in general) very recently.
[and it was probably covered several times earlier in the thread]

Kaosium may have forgotten or misinterpreted it but you were involved in the exchange IIRC.

If you don't accept the argument that cops are skeptical of the changing stories of murder suspects then go with " all cops are ******** " if you want. They are not even mutually exclusive !

The point is hardly obscure or pedantic - its simplicity itself. Once AK names PL and she is considered a serious suspect, the cops are always going to err on the side of caution.

.

Your premise is flawed. For one thing just because something is 'dealt with' to your satisfaction, it doesn't make it 'true.' There's lots of bad arguments back in this thread, some which went unnoticed and uncontested, but that doesn't mean any consensus was reached. The past is just prologue, and I do believe we are just at the end of the beginning understanding this affair.

One prime example is the absurdity that Amanda was not a 'suspect,' serious or not. If you are wiretapping someone, send at least a dozen cops in to work her over, and try to get her to admit through 'repressed memories' that she was at a murder scene, then she is obviously a suspect! They arrested her for this. Trying to pretend she was actually a 'witness' and taping was not required under the above conditions is the sort of ludicrous 'explanation' you would get from an institution definitely trying to hide something.

Once upon a time there was a man who had some tapes he didn't want heard. They beat down his door with lawyers and got the tapes--but there was an eighteen minute gap in the endless hours of taping. The man's secretary claimed she accidentally taped over that part while answering a phone call or something. It could be said that no one in the world believed that excuse, but that would be at least a tiny exaggeration. It's been speculated that missing eighteen minutes might have helped force out one of the most powerful men in the world at the time.

Here you have a police force trying to pretend they didn't tape an entire interrogation under the above conditions when the subject spoke Italian poorly and they were trying to get her to confess to a crime. At least three charges against her stem from this 'witness' interrogation, including one that might carry a life sentence, and you apparently think this has been 'dealt with' because they said something that cannot be true in a rational universe?

Platonov, what do you honestly believe happened in that room and why do you think there's no tape available?
 
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However, if just 1 loci doesn't match sollecito's profile then its not his profile. Yet we got 6 loci that clearly dont match his profile.

Now as for your assumption that there is no way to explain how else Sollecito's DNA could be on there. Could that not be said about the other 3 unidentified peoples DNA thats on the clasp. Or are you gonna deny there is someone elses unidentified DNA on the clasp. Which then make that profile not Sollecito's.



excuse me cutting down your full comment,

but would you share when/where you think all these people left the DNA on the bra clasp?

and has the prosecution/forensic expert accepted there are other DNA to "unidentified people" on the bra clasp?

6 loci don't match?
 
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