Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

the arrival/departure question

The police in the video looked reserved with no sign of jubilation, celebration, or smiles on their face, they even take a moment to make sure Knox face is covered from photographers as she is lead out. The cars leaving (one for each suspect, which is not a surprised), have their windows rolled up as they make their way out of the station through the photographers outside.



Except for the celebration, and heading up the hill to "parade" the three around old town Perugia.

It's hypocritical of you to accuse the police of confirmation bias and tunnel vision from this, when yourself have repeated this piece of hyperbole (at best, fabrication at the worst) without evidence and even gone as far try to twist quotes from news articles.



You should take a look in the mirror when you accuse others of misleading readers or twist quotes.

odeed,

We have evidence that the route was circuitous from Candace Dempsey. We even know her sources. Your claim that there is no evidence of this is false.

Are you going to concede that you were wrong with respect to the convoy, that this happened when the police left, as opposed to when the police arrived?

 

[Justinian2]

The prosecution did not prove that either AK or RS were at the crime scene when the crime happened.
The prosecution did not prove that either AK or RS were NOT at the home when the crime happened.
The prosecution did not establish any plausible motive for AK or RS to commit the murder.
The prosecution did not establish a murder weapon.

The prosecution actually only established that they (the prosecution and police) are idiots.

Compare with the Craig's list killer:
1) Video showed him entering the room with the victim and leaving without the victim.
2) Email showed him in communication with the victim.
3) Financial records showed the motives: money and coverup.
4) Witnesses to previous similar crimes showed that he had previously done similar crimes.
5) Finger prints proved he was at the scene of the crime.
6) The weapon was identified and found in his posession.
7) The DA stated that physical evidence, including an automatic handgun, wrist restraints, duct tape, and other materials were found in Markoff's apartment when the police executed a search warrant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Markoff

Many of the points above were also established in the Guede case.

If you compare the two cases, you cannot conclude that there is any sufficient proof against AK or RS in the Perugia case

My mind keeps resetting to the initial state just described.

 

[Machiavelli]

The link is in message #17301, and now it is here also. I never said anything about an article.

I'm afraid if you don't indicate where this only source Elio Clero Bertoldi is available I have to reject all this claims as unfounded. I don't want to provide my phone number to the AP site by now, and anyway a human source - and an Italian source - is needed. Where is Elio Clero Bertoldi making this report? Where is this source?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the footage

I'm afraid if you don't indicate where this only source Elio Clero Bertoldi is available I have to reject all this claims as unfounded. I don't want to provide my phone number to the AP site by now, and anyway a human source - and an Italian source - is needed. Where is Elio Clero Bertoldi making this report? Where is this source?

Machiavelli,

I provided the shot list from the AP site in a previous message, and this clarified that it was in fact a departure and not an arrival. There were 52 seconds of footage, and it showed the three suspects walking away from the station and one of them getting into a police car. Then the cars pulled away. There were also silent shots of the Kercher family and also of Amanda outside the cottage.

I am sorry that you do not wish to provide the AP site with your phone number, but I do not set their policies. Bertoldi was at the press conference, and he might have written a story which discussed these events. You are in a better position than I am to look through Bertoldi's old stories. So far you have not contributed any original reporting on this question...

 

[Withnail1969]

Machiavelli,

I provided the shot list from the AP site in a previous message

I can only assume that the phrase 'shot list' was unfamiliar to Machiavelli. Obviously moving pictures are a recent innovation in Italy, much like justice and womens' rights.

You have to give these people some time to catch up.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli,

I provided the shot list from the AP site in a previous message, and this clarified that it was in fact a departure and not an arrival. There were 52 seconds of footage, and it showed the three suspects walking away from the station and one of them getting into a police car. Then the cars pulled away. There were also silent shots of the Kercher family and also of Amanda outside the cottage.

I am sorry that you do not wish to provide the AP site with your phone number, but I do not set their policies. Bertoldi was at the press conference, and he might have written a story which discussed these events. You are in a better position than I am to look through Bertoldi's old stories. So far you have not contributed any original reporting on this question...

Do you realize there is nothing, in what you claim, that could be called a source in support to Candace Dempsey's story? What could one deduce by seeing shots of people leaving the police station?
And if you cite Bertoldi as a source to maintain there has been a parade of cars on a route designed purposely, I suppose you have in mind some kind of document in which Bertoldi reports this. Elio Clero Bertoldi is a reporter for Il Corriere dell'Umbria. How do you associate his name to this piece of information? And how does Candace Dempsey?
There is nothing on the Internet that I could found to support this story. Where did Candace Dempsey find this report by Bertoldi?

 

[Kaosium]

odeed,

We have evidence that the route was circuitous from Candace Dempsey. We even know her sources. Your claim that there is no evidence of this is false.

Are you going to concede that you were wrong with respect to the convoy, that this happened when the police left, as opposed to when the police arrived?

"What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."

I don't know how much more you can do. I don't understand what the big issue is for some over this 'convoy.' They didn't 'crash the gate doing ninety-eight' but it sure as hell looks like they made a display of themselves, and how many sources can possibly be needed to prove this actually happened?

I wonder if it is just Candace Dempsey? It seems to me her book is the most reviled amongst Knox books in certain quarters, and perhaps just trying to prove a little tiny portion of her story 'wrong' is important for some reason? Well, they failed. Let us see, the 'disputed' portions attributed to "Murder in Italy" amount to a geographical error and not getting the story wrong regarding the convoy parade. Does that pretty much sum up the score so far?

It will be the first book I buy on this topic.

 

[Amazer]

Machiavelli,

I provided the shot list from the AP site in a previous message, and this clarified that it was in fact a departure and not an arrival. There were 52 seconds of footage, and it showed the three suspects walking away from the station and one of them getting into a police car. Then the cars pulled away. There were also silent shots of the Kercher family and also of Amanda outside the cottage.

I am sorry that you do not wish to provide the AP site with your phone number, but I do not set their policies. Bertoldi was at the press conference, and he might have written a story which discussed these events. You are in a better position than I am to look through Bertoldi's old stories. So far you have not contributed any original reporting on this question...

Okay, i registered with the AP site and had a look at the video. For the life of me I cannot imagine how anyone can seriously describe what is happening there as a 'parade'.

Those happy, smiling and waving police officers are absent from the video.

Further no footage of this 'caravan' taking a detour through the old town.

In addition I would like to know where this large crowd of people, lining the streets is hiding.

Can someone explain to me what is so extraordinary that happens here?

 

[Kaosium]

Okay, i registered with the AP site and had a look at the video. For the life of me I cannot imagine how anyone can seriously describe what is happening there as a 'parade'.

Those happy, smiling and waving police officers are absent from the video.

Further no footage of this 'caravan' taking a detour through the old town.

In addition I would like to know where this large crowd of people, lining the streets is hiding.

Can someone explain to me what is so extraordinary that happens here?

You add them together. How many sources are we up to now, five? Six?

This is starting to remind me of the 'missing' airplane from the Pentagon crash on 9/11. Just because it can't be seen from those two photographs some people wanted to assume it didn't exist, disregarding all the stories from the people who were there and saw it.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

cameraman

Do you realize there is nothing, in what you claim, that could be called a source in support to Candace Dempsey's story? What could one deduce by seeing shots of people leaving the police station?
And if you cite Bertoldi as a source to maintain there has been a parade of cars on a route designed purposely, I suppose you have in mind some kind of document in which Bertoldi reports this. Elio Clero Bertoldi is a reporter for Il Corriere dell'Umbria. How do you associate his name to this piece of information? And how does Candace Dempsey?
There is nothing on the Internet that I could found to support this story. Where did Candace Dempsey find this report by Bertoldi?

Machiavelli,

Ms. Dempsey communicated with the AP camerman and with Mr. Bertoldi directly. Did you look for the 7 November edition of the Corriere dell'Umbria? I do not know whether he wrote a story that included this information or not.

 

[Amazer]

You add them together. How many sources are we up to now, five? Six?

I've got no idea... why don't you list them?

This is starting to remind me of the 'missing' airplane from the Pentagon crash on 9/11. Just because it can't be seen from those two photographs some people wanted to assume it didn't exist, disregarding all the stories from the people who were there and saw it.

I'll admit that I perhaps haven't followed this part of the conversation as close as I should have but the only names I've heard as sources are Dempsey and Bertoldi. And till I see the report by Bertoldi, i have some doubts about considering him a proper source.

Btw, you don't happen to believe in Big Foot do you?

 

[platonov]

Police livery should be subtle so as not to frighten the horses

I don't know how much more you can do. I don't understand what the big issue is for some over this 'convoy.' They didn't 'crash the gate doing ninety-eight' but it sure as hell looks like they made a display of themselves, and how many sources can possibly be needed to prove this actually happened?

I wonder if it is just Candace Dempsey? It seems to me her book is the most reviled amongst Knox books in certain quarters, and perhaps just trying to prove a little tiny portion of her story 'wrong' is important for some reason? Well, they failed. Let us see, the 'disputed' portions attributed to "Murder in Italy" amount to a geographical error and not getting the story wrong regarding the convoy parade. Does that pretty much sum up the score so far?

It will be the first book I buy on this topic.

With the ongoing confusion you have over various interrogations/interviews and what was taped or recorded and when etc etc & Given that this information is available to you on or via this forum your positive review of a book you haven't read is hardly a ringing endorsement.

Or is this one of your [many ?] tongue in cheek posts

The whole parade caravan story is nonsense anyway it seems - I don't understand why halides1 and others think its so important.
Its already been established that Dempsey is flakey.

It wont come up in the appeal will it ? -- the defence claims that the police cars were too visible ! with all those ostentatious lights etc. No doubt some of Mignini's ties are too loud also !

Lets see the appeal docs and sort out the 'non-existent knife' story
- In english please, like Dempsey my Italian isn't up to the job.

.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the police caravan

Okay, i registered with the AP site and had a look at the video. For the life of me I cannot imagine how anyone can seriously describe what is happening there as a 'parade'.

Those happy, smiling and waving police officers are absent from the video.

Further no footage of this 'caravan' taking a detour through the old town.

In addition I would like to know where this large crowd of people, lining the streets is hiding.

Can someone explain to me what is so extraordinary that happens here?

Amazer,

The footage documents that the caravan was moving away from the police station, not toward it as some have claimed. Ms. Dempsey did not use the word "parade," and the description of the police officers waving comes from the Daily Mail article, not from the book Murder in Italy. Ms. Dempsey checked the route with Mr. Bertoldi and possibly with the AP camerman. The police clearly have their lights and sirens on, and I also hear honking. Perhaps it was this behavior that led the Perugian to comment that he had only seen the police behave this way once before, when a mafia leader was arrested, as is discussed in the Daily Mail. However, that last point is my speculation only.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli,

Ms. Dempsey communicated with the AP camerman and with Mr. Bertoldi directly. Did you look for the 7 November edition of the Corriere dell'Umbria? I do not know whether he wrote a story that included this information or not.

Communicated directly? Oh yes.
Where was she? She phoned from Seattle? If the information about a parade purposely done on a track is false - and there is no evidence this is true, since there is nothing about it in any Italian source - this means Candace Dempsey is boasting of false information by a real reporter. Professionals who did not report these facts would have instead told them confidentially to Candace Dempsey. While no other journalist did. This is what you think?

Look, instead, if the source wasn't maybe the Daily Mail you linked:

It is November 6, four days after Meredith's body was discovered, and a ten-strong convoy of police cars, sirens blaring, blasts through the winding streets of Perugia.

Officers have spent the previous night interviewing their three prime suspects, Knox, Sollecito and bar owner Patrick Lumumba.

As they approach the police station, they extend their arms through the open windows and wave their fists in triumph at the crowd.

'It was an incredible sight,' said someone present on the day.

'I have seen the police behave like this only once before, and that was when they arrested one of the country's most notorious Mafia dons. They were celebrating, saying: "Look at us, look at what we have achieved."'

It seems to me Dempsey's story is just a twisting of this information. And this is unjustifiable.
The report above is obviously incorrect: in fact, Lumumba was never questioned by the police, and never spent the night being interviewed. He was arrested in the morning and he was brought to the police station in a convoy from the old city, where he lives.

Then, two suspects were moved back to the city centre, in another convoy, to the jailhouse located in Via Fiorenzo De Lorenzo. Amanda was moved to Capanne.

 

[Amazer]

Amazer,

The footage documents that the caravan was moving away from the police station, not toward it as some have claimed. Ms. Dempsey did not use the word "parade," and the description of the police officers waving comes from the Daily Mail article, not from the book Murder in Italy. Ms. Dempsey checked the route with Mr. Bertoldi and possibly with the AP camerman. The police clearly have their lights and sirens on, and I also hear honking. Perhaps it was this behavior that led the Perugian to comment that he had only seen the police behave this way once before, when a mafia leader was arrested, as is discussed in the Daily Mail. However, that last point is my speculation only.

Halides1,

Thanks for the explanation. So, do you think that this story deserves the outrage we have seen by some in this thread?

 

[odeed]

odeed,

We have evidence that the route was circuitous from Candace Dempsey. We even know her sources. Your claim that there is no evidence of this is false.

Are you going to concede that you were wrong with respect to the convoy, that this happened when the police left, as opposed to when the police arrived?

Candace Dempsey is your evidence, she was not even in Italy at the time. As for her source "Elio Bertoldi, a journalist with Corriere Dell'Umbria who attended the press conference", what has the press conference got to do with the claim of the three being paraded around Perugia?

As for three cars leaving the station, that has been covered, no evidence of jubilation or going on a "parade" of Perugia.

As for the quote from the Perugian you have repeated, "that he had only seen the police behave this way once before, when a mafia leader was arrested" is taken from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...dence-Meredith-murder-case.html#ixzz16GGpTUEv which is an account of the arrest of Lumumba where the police cars "approach" the station, I posted all the articles before. Somehow this was inserted into the Dempsey story about the vehicles leaving the station and going on their tour of Perugia.

I still say that this story is false. You have had 9 days since I originally asked for evidence that the three were paraded around, more than enough time to find evidence of this, especially in a case where the media were all over this from the start. Your evidence is the word of Dempsey who was not there, and a video which shows nothing to back up the story, the fact that you think it does is probably more indicative of your bias and objectivity, rather than your claim that it was the police that showed bias and objectivity in my opinion.

 

[Kaosium]

I've got no idea... why don't you list them?

I already got two of them, check back circa page 400, about a week ago and you'll see them. Others along with those are included about a page or two back in one of Odeed's posts.

Btw, you don't happen to believe in Big Foot do you?

Nope, not until I see one and he's been examined and it made sure he's not some hillbilly who got lost in the woods looking for the keg in 1979.

I don't believe in ghosts either, even if they're named 'Foxy Knoxy' and sound like they'd be fun to party with. Perugia police said they saw one, in an interesting twist they got their courts to say they saw it too. Turns out it was just another sordid tale of a botched investigation with all the lovely scapegoating and CYA you can expect anywhere.

 

[Machiavelli]

Amazer,

The footage documents that the caravan was moving away from the police station, not toward it as some have claimed. Ms. Dempsey did not use the word "parade," and the description of the police officers waving comes from the Daily Mail article, not from the book Murder in Italy. Ms. Dempsey checked the route with Mr. Bertoldi and possibly with the AP camerman. The police clearly have their lights and sirens on, and I also hear honking. Perhaps it was this behavior that led the Perugian to comment that he had only seen the police behave this way once before, when a mafia leader was arrested, as is discussed in the Daily Mail. However, that last point is my speculation only.

The fact a convoy of cars are leaving the police station is just obvious, the suspects were arrested at the police station, I can’t believe somebody tries to use this as a proof of something.
If Dempsey says she “checked” anything with Bertoldi she is simply illegitimately boasting of something her source didn’t report. What does it mean to “check the route with Bertoldi”? Is that a kind of reconstruction of yours? Elio Clero Bertoldi is a reporter, not a Gps device, he usually reports facts he knows or learns about, and he reports what he knows.
Let’s put it simple: jus admit Demspey made up a story, she reports something for which there are no sources, and police patrols didn’t do anything unprofessional by what we know on the occasion.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

we're done here

SNIP
I still say that this story is false.
SNIP

odeed,

I have given you ample time to back down gracefully from your erroneous and disingenuous claims, as anyone who was interested in having a serious conversation would have done. Until you do, I won't be responding further.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

let's see your cards

The fact a convoy of cars are leaving the police station is just obvious, the suspects were arrested at the police station, I can’t believe somebody tries to use this as a proof of something. If Dempsey says she “checked” anything with Bertoldi she is simply illegitimately boasting of something her source didn’t report. What does it mean to “check the route with Bertoldi”? Is that a kind of reconstruction of yours? Elio Clero Bertoldi is a reporter, not a Gps device, he usually reports facts he knows or learns about, and he reports what he knows.
Let’s put it simple: jus admit Demspey made up a story, she reports something for which there are no sources, and police patrols didn’t do anything unprofessional by what we know on the occasion.

Machiavelli,

With respect to the highlighted section, I wish you had told odeed this a while ago, because it would have saved me some time. It was his claim I was refuting. With respect to Ms. Dempsey's making up a story, you have made a claim, now let us see your evidence.