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Paul Krugman endorses Death Panels

So, um, even in the OP the link shows that Krugman was using sarcasm to make a point. So do people just believe literally anything written on a right wing fatwa?

I'd love to post Krugman's quote from his response, but IBD quote mines it without providing a helpful link (always a sign of solid reporting!)

ETA: Linky.

Decide for yourselves if he was endorsing "Death Panels".

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/death-panels-and-sales-taxes/

On this note, private plans decide what they cover or don't cover all the time.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/CancerPreventionAndTreatment/story?id=4038257&page=1&page=1

Now, the CIGNA decided they wouldn't pay for a certain kind of treatment. They deemed it too experimental and not worth the cost. And the girl died. This is an unfortunate part of any health care system, but what's the alternative? Pay for anything without limit? Quack cures? Exorcisms? There has to be a line somewhere, right?

Now, the fact that Krugman recognizes the obvious fact doesn't mean he endorses "Death Panels", does it?
 
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Would the American system have been able to find the cause of my fathers blood loss in less than four weeks?

If not, would they have been willing to keep him for five weeks?

No. Insurance companies fight like hell to send you home. And you have to fight like hell to stay. Women here talk about strategically timing induced labor so they're not sent home the same day or the next day after giving birth.

Sorry about your dad, by the way.
 
I wasn't generalizing all the worlds health care programs. I was showing that the phenomenon of rationing is real. And that there is evidence to support Palins predictions that rationing is a possible outcome.

Rationing is already the outcome, only it's done by insurance companies in the name of profit instead of by medical professionals seeking the best societal outcome. I would rather the latter than the former.
 
Rationing is already the outcome, only it's done by insurance companies in the name of profit instead of by medical professionals seeking the best societal outcome. I would rather the latter than the former.
But that's because you're an Evil Socialist©. Good Capitalists© believe it's much better to have the paper-pusher at the insurance company, who likely can't even pronounce the medical terms, make those life and death decisions.
 
Maybe I'm missing something...there WILL or WILL NOT be "Death Panels"?

I know when Palin mentioned it, she got **** of criticism from the Left.

But now the Left is agreeing with the concept??

So in this thread you're all up in arms at anyone criticizing Sarah Palin because she "holds ZERO political office and makes ZERO laws which affect your life" but now you take your tone deaf interpretation of Paul Krugman's statements (who, by the way, holds ZERO political office and makes ZERO laws which affect your life) as representative of the Left?

Partisan hypocrisy thy name is deepatrax.
 
GOPer says:

"HMO death panel good. Big Gubament Socialist Kenyan death panel bad"
 
So in this thread you're all up in arms at anyone criticizing Sarah Palin because she "holds ZERO political office and makes ZERO laws which affect your life" but now you take your tone deaf interpretation of Paul Krugman's statements (who, by the way, holds ZERO political office and makes ZERO laws which affect your life) as representative of the Left?

Partisan hypocrisy thy name is deepatrax.

You know, it's a pattern I see with the right wherein everything is part of a hidden agenda. Obama is secretly a muslim. Muslims who preach peace are secretly Jihadis (who are commanded by Islamic law to conceal their true intentions), and liberals secretly want death panels. So in any of these cases, it's ok to quote mine or misinterpret because they're simply revealing the secret agenda that was there all along. So if Krugman says, no, that's not what I meant, here's what I mean, we can discount it with a chuckle because we know he's just covering up his momentary lapse into honesty.

See how it works?
 
That sounds more like not covering things like homeopathy, acupuncture, and other woo forms of treatment from the outset rather than the sort of thing the death panels were supposed to be about.

I urge you to look at his many writings and many tv appearances on the subject because you couldn't be more wrong.
 
As noted, any kind of system rations because of a concept known as "scarcity." But what on earth would Krugman know about that, he's only an economist. Let's get Sarah Palin on the horn, she's smart. She'd have to be since she reads every newspaper and magazine published in the United States.
 
What do you call it now when the uninsured simply die with no medical care at all?

I am sure you will disagree but I call it something that rarely happens in America.
I know many people who have had serious diseases and little or no insurance(or money) and all of them were able to get care. Of course there must be cases but I believe those are the exceptions not the norm.
 
I am sure you will disagree but I call it something that rarely happens in America.
I know many people who have had serious diseases and little or no insurance(or money) and all of them were able to get care. Of course there must be cases but I believe those are the exceptions not the norm.

Yeah he overstated it.

What they don't get is adequate care.

What they get is emergency room trips that keep them in poverty/bankruptcy while not actually being the kind of managed approach that meets their health needs.
 
Anybody who wants to know how a universal healthcare system that isn't Canada works, go read the thread about Professor Yaffle's husband, in Community.

The thread title is "I'm really scared".

Rolfe.
 
As I understand it, when one has insurance in the USA you get whatever medical treatment you need, exactly when you want it or need it regardless of the cost and with no damn bureaucrats second guessing your doctors or ruling out treatments (or just delaying approval until a day after never) if they are deemed too expensive and cheaper alternatives may be available.

I mean, if this wasn't the case anyone running in fear of health care rationing in the state funded sector, or screaming about "death panels" would look pretty silly, wouldn't they?
 
If you call 45,000 dead people annually, then your right.

Lets see, if 45,000 die without insurance, and 2,400,000 die every year in America, That means 2,355,000 die with insurance. Apparently having insurance is no guarantee for life. Imagine that.

Here's a little thing;
Perhaps more surprisingly, a stunning 178,000 Americans die from medical or hospital error every year.
http://ask.yahoo.com/20051128.html

178,000!!!!! What!!!! I wonder if they had insurance??? Maybe without insurance they wouldn't be in the hospital that killed them.

45,00 vs. 178,000 You have a 4 times better chance at life without insurance. Go figure.


Death is certain, life is not. Deal with it.
 
Lets see, if 45,000 die without insurance, and 2,400,000 die every year in America, That means 2,355,000 die with insurance. Apparently having insurance is no guarantee for life. Imagine that.

Here's a little thing;
http://ask.yahoo.com/20051128.html

178,000!!!!! What!!!! I wonder if they had insurance??? Maybe without insurance they wouldn't be in the hospital that killed them.

45,00 vs. 178,000 You have a 4 times better chance at life without insurance. Go figure.


Death is certain, life is not. Deal with it.

Someone didn't read the link...

"We found that 45,000 Americans are dying annually, due to lack of health insurance," said Dr. Steffie Woolhandler.

Woolhandler was part of a team that tracked more than 9,000 people for up to 13 years, comparing the health of those with insurance to those without. After factoring in education and income, smoking, drinking and obesity, researchers found that the uninsured had about a 40 percent higher risk of death, linking 45,000 American deaths a year to lack of insurance. In 1993 it was 25 percent.
My bold.
 
(I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but...)

The "death panel" will probably go through the usual dishonest liberal "conscious changing" spiel. First, a flat denial that anybody is suggesting such a thing, calling it Republican propaganda; then a few trial baloons (such as Krugman's claim, or Newsweek's infamous cover story, "The Case for Killing Granny"); then working hard to convince the "right thinking progressives" that death panels are the only "rational" and "scientifically based" choice; and, once the bien pensants are openly for it, massive propaganda that anybody who dares disagree is backward, stupid, emotional, ignoring the facts, etc., etc., etc.

This is what was done with gay marriage, for example. First when gay unions were proposed, those who suggested it swore up and down they will not ask for marriage and said that those who say so are bigots or paranoid. Then "trial baloons" about gay marriage were proposed, those who proposed them being hailed as "brave" and "groundbreaking" in their suggestions. Then the next step was to try and force it through the courts and to declare anybody who disagrees is evil; and the next step is to begin to establish it as an natural, indeed utterly conventional, "fact" that marriage is unrelated to sex.

Sometimes, the issue promoted perhaps deserved such dishonesty about one's real goals (e.g., the civil rights movement had to hide its real goal was total equality); sometimes the dishonesty serves causes that are at best doubtful (e.g., gay marriage); sometimes, as in the case of "death panels", it serves an horrific end. But even when the goal is worthwhile, such a process has three serious downsides.

1). It's really an attempt at dictatorship of thought, at a small group of "progressives" deliberately perverting the will of the majority, whose views it holds in utter contempt. This is known as "activism", and held in high regard by those who see themselves as immensely superior to the unwashed masses.

2). Perhaps some would be willing to suffer such a dictatorship as long as it is benign, as long as the right-thinking folks are, in fact, right in their thinking. Unfortunately such "activism", as Burke noted, doesn't want to do away with what society wrongly forbids; it wants to do away with everything society forbids, seeing all previous taboos or restrictions as based on ignorance. It doesn't differentiate between taboos which should be changed, like the one against race mixing, and those who should not, like that against murder (ooops, I'm sorry -- "euthenasia", I mean "eugenics", I mean "mercy killing", I mean "death panels").

The very fact that society forbids something or, while permitting it, sees it as undesireable (e.g., prostitution) is something that should be broken. That there might be a good reason for prostitution being held in low regard -- it is demeaning and dehumanizing to both sides -- is brushed aside as "unscientific". For the "progressive", taboos as such are taboo.

3). The third disadvantage is that those who suffer the consequences are never the right-thinking folks themselves, the upper classes; it's always the lower classes. If prostitution is just fine, no different from any other job, why should a poor girl avoid it and instead go for a menial, unsatisfying job, instead? It is practically never tempting for the college-educated upper-class "right-thinking" girl to become a prostitute, so the loss of stigma and disapproval will not make her more likely to become one -- no skin off her nose.

So, the poor, uneducated girl becomes a prostitute, and thus becomes a drug-addicted wreck who wishes she were dead by 25. But hey -- it's all society's fault for "stigmatizing" prostitution in the first place! Thus the obvious failure of the "right-thinking" folks is merely seen as more proof how correct they are, and besides, you can't make the omlette of that all-important goal, "destigmatizing prostitution", without breaking some eggs. Hey, it's nobody they know, so who cares?

You can bet your behind that when "death panles" become the norm, the same folks -- like Krugman -- who are for them will never themselves face such a panel. It will always be the poor, the uneducated, and other unimportant, dispensable folks who will be executed by them.

To sum up:

So, while it's true nobody yet suggested death panels in Obamacare, once healthcare is safely (?) in the hands of the "right-thinking progressives" instead of the "greedy insurance companies", there probably will be. This is what the Republicans and people like Sarah Palin are saying, and -- experience shows -- they are, unfortunately, usually correct. They just know the dishonest way the "progressive activists" always work to advance their goals.
 
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I wasn't generalizing all the worlds health care programs. I was showing that the phenomenon of rationing is real. And that there is evidence to support Palins predictions that rationing is a possible outcome.

I'd question whether that situation was national policy (true rationing) to place a time limit or the providers decision to say "been here too long". In any case, wouldn't they have social workers, rehabilitation services and district nurses and the like to provide ongoing care for a person medically stable but not ready to go home unsupported and needing ongoing monitoring? It sounds more like a failure to maintain adequate standards of care than anything else.

Rationing is real, in New Zealand there is publicly funded system with some private insurance options for elective procedures (like hip replacements). Doesn't fund everything, but it's pretty comprehensive and provides tertiary care and for very expensive procedures only available overseas there is some funding available. That being said, I've never heard of there being time limits on admissions, only on what is funded. I've been in the situation where there was a patient with a blood disorder, young with a family and they were treated. In fact, it used up the entire drug budget for the ward for the month on blood products for that person. I can remember being told that, but they weren't quibbling over the costs or the time it took to treat.

Fact is rationing exists whatever system you use, it's no different really whether it's a government choosing what they fund or an insurance provider choosing what they will cover. To be honest, it has to be that way as at some point being rational about what is provided and what isn't is appropriate, there is always going to be need but only so much facilities and money to go around to meet that need. No one system can be everything to everyone. The real issue for me at least isn't the rationing, but does whatever system in place provide some reasonable level of care for all. If it doesn't and people fall through the cracks and have to literally rely on the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff you've got a few bigger problems than rationing.
 

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