North Korea fires artillery on the South

[richardm]

Apparently, SK has been seeking to get access to Tac nukes

I bet they're not finding many offers though.

Edit: The BBC have updated their story a bit now:

The BBC's Chris Hogg says the cabinet had decided that in the existing rules of engagement there was too much emphasis on preventing a military incident escalating into something worse.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11836194#story_continues_3

There is now an awareness that this thinking had to change, our correspondent says.
In future the South would implement different levels of response depending on whether the North Koreans attacked the military in the South or civilian targets, the spokesman said.

...

Earlier Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, who is in Moscow, described the situation on the peninsula as "grim and complicated".

Hmm.

 

[timhau]

This cartoon highlights again the "childish" petulant stereotype of Asians, and KJI in particular so popular in American culture ever since the Philippine-American war at the turn of the 20th century. Although it is funny, it also serves a propaganda purpose, and that purpose is dehumanization and demonization.

Of course, why else would I have posted it? The tag on my brain says "handwash only", and it's been subjected to machine wash almost since birth.

 

[McHrozni]

I honestly dont think NK is crazy enough to use nukes. They like to bark alot but have no bite. They lose alot more in any conflict essentially ending the current regime in NK. They have neither the money or resources to fight any extended war against a modern military. Yeah they could shell Seoul but they would be literally bombed into the stone age in a matter of days. So yeah they can yell and scream and throw the occasional sucker punch but I think they avoid all out war and favor self preservation.

Unfortunately avoiding all out war and self-preservation doesn't exclude selling nukes to people who would gladly use them, as they can't be retalliated against propertly. Al-Queda and related groups come to mind. A nuclear North Korea is a continuosly ringing alarmy bell.

McHrozni

 

[WildCat]

Could there be a 3rd option that might work -- merge both governments or dissolve them both and come up with something new to govern both countries that isn't either of the two governments? What if this was put on the table as well?

The government of SK is elected. Residents of NK would have a vote just like everyone else in a reunification scenario.

Of course, if NK took over no one would have a vote.

 

[WildCat]

Before we take that ultimate step I would try and wait for the transition of power, and see what that tells us. We we see the wrong signals, then maybe we have to take that terrible step. Personally I am a litte more optimistic

That's fine, but remember that millions have died in the last decade alone in the current peace due to starvation and oppression.

Peace comes with a very high price also, albeit almost entirely on the other side.

 

[WildCat]

Unfortunately avoiding all out war and self-preservation doesn't exclude selling nukes to people who would gladly use them, as they can't be retalliated against propertly. Al-Queda and related groups come to mind. A nuclear North Korea is a continuosly ringing alarmy bell.

McHrozni

And they already have exported their nuke program to Syria.

 

[Father Dagon]

One thing i never understood. Why didn't South Korea pull an Operation Opera like Israel did back in 1981.

Because they share a border, Iraq and Israel doesn't.

When you're firing 50 year old shells with 60 year old guns the margin of error increases.

Hence the targeting of Seoul.

This cartoon highlights again the "childish" petulant stereotype of Asians, and KJI in particular so popular in American culture ever since the Philippine-American war at the turn of the 20th century. Although it is funny, it also serves a propaganda purpose, and that purpose is dehumanization and demonization.

Good point. However, AFAIK the NKs does really believe their own propaganda. The first time KJI played golf, he completed the course with five hole-in-ones etc, etc...

 

[Stout]

The first time KJI played golf, he completed the course with five hole-in-ones etc, etc...

I spent an hour or so this morning using google maps to look for KJI's yacht as a buddy of mine who'd just red a book on NK told me it was a huge yacht on a tiny lake.

I found the yacht, and the golf course, mush to my surprise. Wondering just who in NK can golf I went an investigoogling and came up with KJI's score, 38under par. Apparently that was in 1994 and he hasn't touched a golf club since.

 

[dudalb]

Could there be a 3rd option that might work -- merge both governments or dissolve them both and come up with something new to govern both countries that isn't either of the two governments? What if this was put on the table as well?

Kind of hard to compromise between a Democratic Government and the most Totaltarian Government on Earth.

 

[MG1962]

That's fine, but remember that millions have died in the last decade alone in the current peace due to starvation and oppression.

Peace comes with a very high price also, albeit almost entirely on the other side.

Millions of South Koreans will die in the first few minutes of any conflict between the two Koreas. Then the fighting will start. Sorry that is just too high a price

 

[WildCat]

Millions of South Koreans will die in the first few minutes of any conflict between the two Koreas. Then the fighting will start. Sorry that is just too high a price

I doubt it'd be millions, likely tens of thousands. But I can see why they'd rather millions of Norks die rather than their own.

 

[MG1962]

I doubt it'd be millions, likely tens of thousands. But I can see why they'd rather millions of Norks die rather than their own.

Perhaps you might like to do a little less chest thumping and learn a little more about the battle that would occur

If you feel you can flood 80% of a city of ten million with a wall of water 15 meters high and only kill tens of thousands I think FEMA might like to take advantage of your obvious skill in flood management

 

[WildCat]

Perhaps you might like to do a little less chest thumping and learn a little more about the battle that would occur

If you feel you can flood 80% of a city of ten million with a wall of water 15 meters high and only kill tens of thousands I think FEMA might like to take advantage of your obvious skill in flood management

What are you talking about?

 

[MG1962]

What are you talking about?

The Han River...Runs through the capital of South Korea.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1582809,00.html

 

[WildCat]

The Han River...Runs through the capital of South Korea.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1582809,00.html

South Korea already built a dam on their side of the border which exists solely to stop the flow of water should the dam in North Korea collapse for any reason. You can see it on Google Earth.

 

[MG1962]

South Korea already built a dam on their side of the border which exists solely to stop the flow of water should the dam in North Korea collapse for any reason. You can see it on Google Earth.

Yes however they are defenseless against the other 5 dams. When the Peace Dam was built, the dam it was meant to defend against was not even completed. Recently the North added to the top of the original dam.

Only thing holding them back is how slow the basin is filling

 

[WildCat]

Yes however they are defenseless against the other 5 dams. When the Peace Dam was built, the dam it was meant to defend against was not even completed. Recently the North added to the top of the original dam.

Only thing holding them back is how slow the basin is filling

So they don't even have the ability now and S. Korea could always add to their dam if needed.

 

[MG1962]

So they don't even have the ability now and S. Korea could always add to their dam if needed.

The problem is I strongly believe the official logic of the south is flawed. Their concern is he will open sluice gates to empty the dams, which the Peace dam might have a shot at stopping

However I am convinced dear leader wont empty those dams. He will blow them - The Peace Dam will just add to the wreckage that comes down stream. See if he blows the dams he has the water in Seoul in about 30 -45 minutes. If he sluices and tries to overflow the Peace Dam, he is looking at about 12 hours.

Those dams are built in an area of no economic consequence. Only one of the six can produce electricity. The other five are there to simply stop water, nothing else

As recently as 2002 - A US General...sorry I dont recall his name, argued these dams are the best weapon the north has if it ever launched an offense against the south. He argued the flooding these dams could cause would slow counter attacks from the south by as much as 35 hours

 

[keale]

The problem is I strongly believe the official logic of the south is flawed. Their concern is he will open sluice gates to empty the dams, which the Peace dam might have a shot at stopping

However I am convinced dear leader wont empty those dams. He will blow them - The Peace Dam will just add to the wreckage that comes down stream. See if he blows the dams he has the water in Seoul in about 30 -45 minutes. If he sluices and tries to overflow the Peace Dam, he is looking at about 12 hours.

Those dams are built in an area of no economic consequence. Only one of the six can produce electricity. The other five are there to simply stop water, nothing else

As recently as 2002 - A US General...sorry I dont recall his name, argued these dams are the best weapon the north has if it ever launched an offense against the south. He argued the flooding these dams could cause would slow counter attacks from the south by as much as 35 hours

Agreed that the south faces no good options and likely heavy casualties however on the flip side the current NK regime would come to an abrupt end when they are bombed literally into the stone age by the retaliatory response. What would there be to gain in that scenario? Both sides lose but NK is committing suicide while SK would rebuild in the aftermath.

Right now theres alot of concern that this little skirmish could escalate but im have trouble finding some sort of gain for NK should war break out. IF NK thought they had a chance in hell of winning they would have done it long ago.

 

[Father Dagon]

The problem is I strongly believe the official logic of the south is flawed. Their concern is he will open sluice gates to empty the dams, which the Peace dam might have a shot at stopping

However I am convinced dear leader wont empty those dams. He will blow them - The Peace Dam will just add to the wreckage that comes down stream. See if he blows the dams he has the water in Seoul in about 30 -45 minutes. If he sluices and tries to overflow the Peace Dam, he is looking at about 12 hours.

Those dams are built in an area of no economic consequence. Only one of the six can produce electricity. The other five are there to simply stop water, nothing else

As recently as 2002 - A US General...sorry I dont recall his name, argued these dams are the best weapon the north has if it ever launched an offense against the south. He argued the flooding these dams could cause would slow counter attacks from the south by as much as 35 hours

Horrible!

But maybe SK have some kind of secret, emergency plug they can pull in their dam?