Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

LOL, yeah, a couple of the articles I've read make the same point.

With that haircut, Raffaele looks like he'd attract a lot of attention in prison - especially when in the shower. Hope not. Perhaps Italy doesn't have fags.

Maybe he wants the attention and sympathy Amanda is getting?

Mere speculation. I shouldn't engage in rumor, but it's fun sometimes.

Traumatic events like this probably always change people.

I was musing that what is libel in Italy is free speech in the USA and vice versa. In other words, what is being said about Amanda in the foreign press contains much that would be considered libelous content in the USA. Many movie stars have sued the tabloids for less libelous remarks and won.

 

[platonov]

What's happening with those those shoes.

This is a horrible argument, isn't it? If evidence is found, she's guilty. If evidence is not found, she's guilty?

Wherever it is that capealadin is from, I getting through law school there must be a cinch

I don't believe Capealadin is claiming legal expertise ?

In any case, given that at least 1 of the resident experts here seems to have graduated from the "watched 'Matlock' in a bar last night with the sound down but got the gist of it" school of law how much is actually required

.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hello, folks. I've been lurking in this forum since I read the English translation of the Massei report back in August. A true crime buff, I've been absorbed with the story since I saw a headline about it in La Repubblica during a trip to Italy in the fall of 2008.

I'm a news junkie, too, but have little patience for "Dateline" style TV journalism. Perhaps that's why my first exposure to it happened in Italy close to a year after it happened. When I came back to the states I caught up. I'm fascinated by the Rashomon-like version differences presented in Washington state based news sites vs. UK tabloids. I've read Barbie's and Candace's books and found similar discrepancies.

My big question, on the eve of the appeal, is about drug tests. The Massei report seems to indicate that AK and RS were not subject to any blood, urine, or hair tests. Evidence of consumption of meth, coke, LSD, or PCP may have helped the prosecution's case, given that there are precedents that using these substances can lead to violent crime. Were any drug tests, even for cannabis, conducted? Given that the accused admitted to toking, did law enforcement just take their word for it?

Law enforcement accepting their admittance of drug use, without drug testing, seems lax to me, given that AK and RS lied about the break in and the clean up. They could be lying about cannabis to conceal use of much harder drugs that lead to the murder.

Greetings ElsieEthrington,
and welcome to our discussion group!

I too had wondered exactly what you wrote about, and recall even bringing it forth for debate, which never really happened...

Anyways, I did find this that I quoted back in Sept.
"However, I would like to share something with you that I re-read last night in Barbie Nadeau's book "Angel Face" on pages 161 +162:
" In the days right after the murder, there was talk of a Satanic ritual because of the Halloween paraphernalia found at the girls' villa and Raf's apartment. That hypothesis was soon discounted, however, and replaced with the idea of sex games gone wrong in a fog of drugs and alcohol. Unfortunately, no alcohol or drug testing was done immediately on Amanda, Raf, or Rudy, and Meredith's initial toxicology reports showed that she had had no more than a glass of wine. (Later toxicology reports that she may have been very drunk, but the prosecution wrote those off as bad forensics - they said her body had not been stored properly, so the blood alcohol levels were due to fermentation, not intoxication. As for Amanda and Raf, when they were finally arrested, on Nov. 6, only the slightest unidentifiable trace of narcotics was found thru hair samples - not even enough to identify the substance.)

Interesting, don't you think?

Once again, welcome,
for I am always glad to see new comers join us here and bring forth their own ideas of what they believe happened
the night that Meredith Kercher had her life taken away so brutally, so horribly, and so bloodily...
RWVBWL

 

[Mary_H]

I think it might be like the "perp walks" in the U.S.

My own aside, is it just me or do Amanda and Raffaelle now have the exact same hair-doo?

Like Gwyneth and Brad when they were dating.

 

[Mary_H]

I was hoping you would stick around to discuss the appeals. You have had such nice things to say about me recently.

I agree with you on the video of the singing in court. I hope the prosecution introduces this as well as the Lady Macbeth artwork and in-depth analysis that was done. They should consider adding the statement analysis dude's work as well.

LOL, Rose. That would be perfect.

 

[Mary_H]

You're suggesting collusion between everyone involved in the prosecutor's office, the postal police, and the scientific police. All these people are willing to risk their carreers just because a cop made an incorrect statement. This makes no sense.

I've yet to hear a coherent argument as to why AK and RS were convicted when we are constantly being told there was no evidence. The leading contenders are:
1. planted evidence
2. corrupt cops
3. corrupt prosecutors
4. corrupt jury
5. incompetent jury
6. anti-Americanism
7. post-fascist brainwashing
8. poor investigative techniques

What was wrong with the answer I gave you last night, Alt+4?

Mary: I don't believe the pair were convicted due to planted evidence. I believe they were convicted because the jury panel favored the prosecution's case before they went into the courtroom and had no plans to change their minds.

That doesn't necessarily imply the jury members were corrupt. It suggests they believed the prosecutor had the most credibility.

 

[RWVBWL]

The first photo http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/fotogallery/fotogallery3634.shtml?1 shows luminol reaction in the grouting between the tiles.

The second photo http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/fotogallery/fotogallery3634.shtml?2 shows a footprint on the right (possible second print just to the left of it), with what looks like a pattern of smearing or wiping on the left of the picture.

Thank you Odeed for posting the links...

I haven't seen these photos before, thanks for the link. One is disturbing (the foot) but I don't believe most have been seen in the English speaking mass media before.

I agree Alt-F4,
That photograph of the foot is disturbing...
As I looked thru the other photographs, especially the bathroom ones, I thought to myself once again,
"Well, Meredith's blood that is there doesn't make me think that she was brutally murdered, as it seemingly DID NOT do for Postal Police Officers Michele Battistelli+Fabio Marzi."

And then I also wondered of something else,
something that I have never seen before in any photographs of the bathroom from that day that Meredith was discovered brutally murdered.
Where is that PINK Vibrator?
http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/fotogallery/fotogallery3634.shtml?9
http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/fotogallery/fotogallery3634.shtml?10

Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What is he talking about?

Seriously, is this guy for real? Don't you love the fact they include a super blown up picture of this bolder, making it look like the size of a small mountain? LOL.

What gap does he mean? I have previously expressed some respect for Colonel Garofano's views on luminol (but not on DNA). However, on the basis of several things in this article I am very unimpressed with both his judgment of the case and my judgment of him.

 

[Justinian2]

Once again, welcome, for I am always glad to see new comers join us here and bring forth their own ideas of what they believe happened the night that Meredith Kercher had her life taken away so brutally, so horribly, and so bloodily...
RWVBWL

While I feel so sorry for the family of Meredith Kercher and hope nobody has to go through what they have gone through, I am not at all happy with the people that would callously present her memory merely as justification for attacking AK or RS or their families.

 

[TomCH]

While I feel so sorry for the family of Meredith Kercher and hope nobody has to go through what they have gone through, I am not at all happy with the people that would callously present her memory merely as justification for attacking AK or RS or their families.

I agree, that is not justification for attacking AK or RS or their families.

However, the fact that they have been convicted in a court of law for being sex offenders and murderers does, in fact, justify attacking AK and RS. After all, I don't see anyone complaining about RG being attacked for exactly the same crimes!

And while I can understand a parent trying to protect their child, even if they have committed a heinous crime, there are limits how much hype one can take.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

please clarify

I agree, that is not justification for attacking AK or RS or their families.

However, the fact that they have been convicted in a court of law for being sex offenders and murderers does, in fact, justify attacking AK and RS. After all, I don't see anyone complaining about RG being attacked for exactly the same crimes!

And while I can understand a parent trying to protect their child, even if they have committed a heinous crime, there are limits how much hype one can take.

TomCH,

Precisely what do you mean by hype?

 

[TomCH]

TomCH,

Precisely what do you mean by hype?

TV interviews, etc.

Want justice, hire some good lawyers, and stop trying to influence the courts via the media, especially that of another country (i.e. the US). Italian courts REALLY don't care about what people in the US think!

(Nor do they care what people on Internet forums think)

 

[treehorn]

Treehorn has rediscovered the great old "But how do you know for sure that there isn't SECRET evidence that makes Amanda and Raffaele look guilty?" argument.

"Secret" evidence?!

Try: "Unknown" evidence. We simply do not know what was, and what was not, adduced in this regard. And you know it.

FWIW, I was trying to get the discussion to progress in accord with YOUR rule that we stick to"evidence-based arguments." (A rule which I endorse!)

Have you had a change of heart about the importance of this rule? (I hope not!)

PS Why have you been dodging my questions since early October? December is almost upon us!

 

[Katody Matrass]

The first photo http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/fotogallery/fotogallery3634.shtml?1 shows luminol reaction in the grouting between the tiles.

The second photo http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/fotogallery/fotogallery3634.shtml?2 shows a footprint on the right (possible second print just to the left of it), with what looks like a pattern of smearing or wiping on the left of the picture.

Thanks for pointing it out, odeed!

Interestingly, the first photo has the grouting quite visible, while the print is not smeared at all. The other photo has the prints slightly smeared (and the photo is moved), but the grouting hardly reacts. Looks like there was not much fluid to begin with, but rather a bit of smearing of some moist on the floor.

Another noticeable thing in the second photo:
The print on the right is the one attributed by Rinaldi to Sollecito, while the other one was not analyzed apparently. But they are roughly of the same size.
You can barely see in the photo the outline of tiles, but two longer sides can be seen. Distance between them is just 16 cm (the shorter side of a tile). Do you really think those traces are 24,5 cm long? I think Rinaldi definitely got it wrong and Vinci is right with his measurement of 215 mm.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

documented

"Secret" evidence?!
SNIP

treehorn,

Within the last couple of weeks, I have documented Daniel De Luna's words for you in both Italian and English. I have also documented some of Ms. Nadeau's errors, as well as one of Newsweek's lapses in journalistic judgment. All of this I did for your benefit. Would you be so good as to comment? Use the advanced search function, put my username in, and put "treehorn" in as the search term. It is no "secret" that I believe in evidence-based arguments, as you do also.

 

[RoseMontague]

TV interviews, etc.

Want justice, hire some good lawyers, and stop trying to influence the courts via the media, especially that of another country (i.e. the US). Italian courts REALLY don't care about what people in the US think!

(Nor do they care what people on Internet forums think)

I am glad that Italian courts don't care what we think. I have seen some say that they will be harsh on Amanda and not render a fair judgment because of this hype that they don't care about. Since they don't care what I say on the internet either I see no reason to hold back my opinion on what I think the problems were with the first trial. I only hope they do what they are supposed to do and render a fair judgment.

 

[Justinian2]

I agree, that is not justification for attacking AK or RS or their families.

However, the fact that they have been convicted in a court of law for being sex offenders and murderers does, in fact, justify attacking AK and RS. After all, I don't see anyone complaining about RG being attacked for exactly the same crimes!

And while I can understand a parent trying to protect their child, even if they have committed a heinous crime, there are limits how much hype one can take.

In a hierarchical society - even in democracies - people frequently follow the leader even if he's wrong. Just because a high 'priest' in the Italian Judicial system makes a proclamation, it doesn't change the minds of those that believe that there are certain scientific criteria that must be met to necessitate a finding of guilty.

Consequently, we still hold that AK and RS are totally innocent. With many here, their innocence is a fact beyond mere debate, but not beyond fact.

Facts are our Gods, for all intensive purposes.

 

[TomCH]

I am glad that Italian courts don't care what we think. I have seen some say that they will be harsh on Amanda and not render a fair judgment because of this hype that they don't care about. Since they don't care what I say on the internet either I see no reason to hold back my opinion on what I think the problems were with the first trial. I only hope they do what they are supposed to do and render a fair judgment.

Well, I think it fair to say that RS and AK will be treated equally, as they were the first time around, and since there has been no such hype on the part of RS's family in the Italian (or other) media, one can but conclude that the US hype also will have no bearing on the case.

Or do you think RS will get off, as he is Italian, and AK will get life, as she is American?

 

[TomCH]

their innocence is a fact beyond mere debate

Hardly.

It is an act of faith, and perhaps even fact, but until the fact has been proven, it is NOT beyond debate.

That they have been convicted, IS, however, a fact beyond debate.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The Supremes

Well, I think it fair to say that RS and AK will be treated equally, as they were the first time around...SNIP

TomCH,

This is a debatable assessment. The Supreme Court ruled that Amanda could be held without charge for up to one year, partly on the basis that she was a flight risk. It is really tough to make this argument for Raffaele, yet he was held as well. This is one instance where they were treated equally in one sense, but in another he was treated less fairly than she was.