North Korea fires artillery on the South

[Checkmite]

He got his country nuclear weapons in a world that did not want him to have them. That alone is a massive achievement of great proportions, for a country as dinky, barren and backwards and war torn as North Korea.

Yeah - or, he just bought the parts from China, which isn't any kind of achievement at all really.

 

[foxholeatheist]

I would hope I'm wrong, but you may be massively underestimating the effects of the brainwashing these people have been subjected to. We said much the same thing in Iraq, as I'm sure you know. If there is even a small percentage of hard core NK's loose in the countryside, we're in the same boat as Iraq.

Not at all, I understand it very well. My Korean is pretty good. I only lived there for about 15 years or so. I understand that in the North Korean kindergartens children are taught that when K. I. Sung threw a pine cone at the Japanese occupational forces that it could magically turn into a grenade. That is some serious brainwashing, I'll give you that.

I have a hard time believing that the actual Mr. Kim living near Pyeongyang really buys that kind of 1984ish bull. A good friend of mine who was a University Professor in Korea (he was Canadian) has traveled to the North several times and one thing he would always say is that without the regime the folks in the North are much like folks in the South except there's fewer PC방 up in the North. But that is a single second hand data point I am going off of. I believe that once the facade of the current regime is brought down the average Mr. Lee/Kim/Choi would come around.

While it is true that the State's version of history carries that Kim Il-Sung was some sort of God I don't know with how much conviction the average person in the North really believes it to be true and I don't think that delusion would last long once the curtains are raised and they are able to see the world without the regime's lenses.

Iraq and Afghanistan have some not trivial differences. Both had/have a good influx of foreign fighters. Also, if this were to shape up to be an American action, we would have the South with us who speak nearly the same language as the North (Nearly, and in case you are curious, the Korean spoken in the South and the Korean spoken in the North are about as different as American English and Cockney Del-Boy English) and would come from similar cultural backgrounds which is something that the US and Coalition did not have much of in the middle east. Once the conventional army is destroyed there is not the basis nor the motivation for a prolonged insurgency among the North Korean people.

All speculation done from the comfort of my dining room. And my wife who is 100% Korean disagrees with me. She doesn't think it would take as long as the 'War on Terror' but she does not share my view that we have but to kick in the door for the entire rotting structure to collapse.

 

[UWdude]

The wounded have not.


Further, SK has made it very clear via international announcements that NK has received, that it's "maneuvers" were a military training exercise that did not involve live fire. Why do you insist on painting North Korea's actions as non-provocative when they clearly not only are, but are intended to be?

That's the problem with your whole "just let them be" mindset, is that it doesn't work because North Korea continues to shoot at people.

I am sure there is an explanation for what happened today. I am sure it is not Kim Jong Il was jerking off and decided he needed the vibrations of 200 guns to get over the top as he was reading his favorite Russian porn mag, although I am sure the west will paint something as equally ridiculous, like it was a present for his son or some nonsense.

Of course, minds are already made up... it was done because KJI is crazy. That's it, it must be because he is crazy. There cant be a reasonable explanation, because we all know he is crazy. Screw waiting for any official details or explanation from NK, we'll just assume they're crazy. That is something we can understand easily.

 

[UWdude]

OK, so you believe that the NK population is choosing the way they live.
Psst, your credibility is ---------------------> that way.

to the right? Interesting.

And no. But Don't be fooled, Americans are brainwashed thoroughly as well. Perhaps even better, as American brainwashing technology is more advanced.

 

[Pardalis]

i dont agree, sure abuse is abuse, but still i think the North Koreans are getting more severly abused than the taliban did and do with Afghani people.
thats no excuse for the Taliban or something, its just that i think the NK Regime has toped the taliban in terms of abuse.

It's not a competition.

 

[EGarrett]

How did a country like this get a hold of nuclear weapons in the first place? Are they that easy to develop?

 

[KingMerv00]

I swear, 20% of NK's national income goes to thinking up new ways to be dicks.

 

[KingMerv00]

to the right? Interesting.

And no. But Don't be fooled, Americans are brainwashed thoroughly as well. Perhaps even better, as American brainwashing technology is more advanced.

And what technology is that?

 

[Checkmite]

I am sure there is an explanation for what happened today. I am sure it is not Kim Jong Il was jerking off and decided he needed the vibrations of 200 guns to get over the top as he was reading his favorite Russian porn mag, although I am sure the west will paint something as equally ridiculous, like it was a present for his son or some nonsense.

Of course, minds are already made up... it was done because KJI is crazy. That's it, it must be because he is crazy. There cant be a reasonable explanation, because we all know he is crazy. Screw waiting for any official details or explanation from NK, we'll just assume they're crazy. That is something we can understand easily.

If you were actually keeping any kind of track instead of just assuming you know exactly what's going on, you'd know that North Korea has been insisting that South Korea's military training exercises were just cause for reaction with force ever since the exercises were announced months ago; and they in fact have already given an official explanation for this "incident":

This latest action occurred during South Korean maritime military drills. North Korea said the incident stemmed from those exercises, code named Hoguk, and called the activity "war maneuvers for a war of aggression."

The "South Korean puppet group" engaged in "reckless military provocation" by firing "dozens of shells" inside its territorial waters "despite the repeated warnings of the DPRK" or Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the North's military said in a statement.

"The revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK standing guard over the inviolable territorial waters of the country took such a decisive military step as reacting to the military provocation of the puppet group with a prompt powerful physical strike," the statement said.

Link

 

[Aoidoi]

How did a country like this get a hold of nuclear weapons in the first place? Are they that easy to develop?

Pretty much yeah. Getting hold of fissionable material is non trivial, but making an atomic bomb isn't that tough, particularly with reliable modern explosives for the trigger. Such a simple a-bomb is gonna be more Hiroshima/Nagasacki sized than the far more complicated h-bombs the major powers have, but clearly that's big enough to be a serious concern.

From a pure loss of life standpoint I'm actually more worried about the conventional artillery aimed at Seoul, but nukes do have a serious psychological impact.

 

[BenBurch]

I swear, 20% of NK's national income goes to thinking up new ways to be dicks.

More like 80%.

 

[UWdude]

Yeah - or, he just bought the parts from China, which isn't any kind of achievement at all really.

Hey, don't forget Donald Rumsfeld's help.

(are you just guessin' about China's help? I think you are.)

And what technology is that?

television, commercials, magazines, nightly news, newspapers, network news, movies, multi-million dollar scientific marketing campaigns and Laguna Beach.
Ever hear of such wonderful technologies?
North Koreans, I assure you, are not inundated with nearly as much.

 

[excaza]

They have a funny way of showing that.

War isn't what they want. They will not win a war. Even without outside influence, SK's military is better equipped and better funded. The people actually in charge of NK know this.

 

[excaza]

Yeah - or, he just bought the parts from China, which isn't any kind of achievement at all really.

More likely Pakistan, see A.Q. Khan.

edit: at least initially

 

[Doubt]

So now we know why the were showing off their new nuclear facility. Prelude to the current action as a means of intimidation.

The residents may very well move back. S. Korea has a small village they keep inside the DMZ. The residents are there to help express territorial claims. They get tax breaks and other benefits by living there. I suppose the will do the same for the island if they are not doing it already.

 

[UWdude]

War isn't what they want. They will not win a war. Even without outside influence, SK's military is better equipped and better funded. The people actually in charge of NK know this.

depends which way the war moved. I am sure a pure SK invasion of NK would not be pretty. A NK invasion of SK of course, would be a rout, unless they had a huge surprise nuclear strike. (then NK would just disappear)

 

[KingMerv00]

North Koreans, I assure you, are not inundated with nearly as much.

Not nearly as much vacuous crap but I assure YOU they are inundated with far more direct propaganda.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

S Korea warns North after clash

South Korea says it will retaliate with missile strikes against the North if faced with "further provocations", after an exchange of fire in which two South Korean marines were killed.

President Lee Myung-bak was responding to the shelling of an inhabited island close to a disputed maritime border.

Balance of article, plus video at URL above.

 

[UWdude]

Not nearly as much vacuous crap but I assure YOU they are inundated with far more direct propaganda.

So what? And "more"? I don't see how Koreans could be inundated with more crap than the average American. they simply do not have the constant media exposure that an American has. Sometimes not having 2 televisions in every household has its advantages. Plus, direct propaganda is easier to resist.

Fill minds with vacuous crap, tell the masses they are under attack, or have an enemy, and because the masses are not paying attention, they will assume you must be telling the truth. Sprinkle that with lies and distortions, or continued focus on a tiny bit of a country's misdeed, while erasing from your own history in your schools your misdeeds, and viola. Fill the media during elections with such empire shattering issues like gay marriage and abortion, while paying little more heed to foreign policy than, "Do we need a stronger or the strongest military?" and viola, Mindless American masses.

 

[Doubt]

Pretty much yeah. Getting hold of fissionable material is non trivial, but making an atomic bomb isn't that tough, particularly with reliable modern explosives for the trigger.

Slightly disagree with the first sentence because of what you immediately followed it with. Getting Plutonium or enough U235 is just not easy. You need a reactor for the plutonium and then you have to separate it from the fuel rods. For U235 you need a lot of good centrifuges.

Also, the one N. Korean bomb that was tested did not reach full yield. Not a dude but not nearly what they were trying to achieve.