Will the internet survive energy contraction?

[Roboramma]

Then why do we always use outside energy sources to repair energy infrastructure?

Do we? Perhaps because in those situations we use the cheapest available method to do so? You still haven't given any reason not to use the power generated by the plant to do the repairs.

What reason is there not to do so?

Only if we have multiple energy sources. On Hydro alone we can not power an industrial civilization.

We weren't talking about powering an industrial civilization, we were talking about maintaining a power plant.

 

[Roboramma]

The Tolowa's have existed for around 12,500 years as a civilization, the Romans did not. Italians are not Romans, at least not culturally. Italians are no longer racially pure either.

That seems like an extraordinary claim to me. Do you have any evidence for it? Specifically, how do you define "civilization"? Because I would suggest that by any definition that supports the claim that the Tolowa civilization has existed for 12,500 years, the "Roman civilization" still exists today.

 

[TFian]

That seems like an extraordinary claim to me. Do you have any evidence for it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_California#Precontact

Specifically, how do you define "civilization"?

Language, customs, beliefs, so forth

Because I would suggest that by any definition that supports the claim that the Tolowa civilization has existed for 12,500 years, the "Roman civilization" still exists today.

But that's wrong. The Italians do not practice any kind of Romanized culture, and worst yet, they are no longer racially pure, but now a bastardized mongrel version of their former selves. The Tolowa are still pure however.

 

[Roboramma]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_California#Precontact

From your link:

Traits recognizable to historic tribes were established by approximately 500 BCE.

Which doesn't sound like a civilization that has been present for 12,500 years. It sounds like at best you have evidence for a civilization that has been around for 1500 years.

Language, customs, beliefs, so forth

From your link:

Before contact, California Indians spoke over 300 dialects of approximately one hundred distinct languages. Most indigenous languages of California belong to three language families: Hokan, Penutian, and Uto-Aztecan. Other language families, such as Algonquian, Athapaskan, and Yukian were represented, as well as language isolates, such as Chimariko, Esselen, and Karuk.

This is exactly my point: do you have any evidence that language, customs, beliefs, and so forth have actually remained stable in that region for 12,500 years?
Hint: they haven't.

But that's wrong. The Italians do not practice any kind of Romanized culture, and worst yet, they are no longer racially pure, but now a bastardized mongrel version of their former selves. The Tolowa are still pure however.

I don't see how "racial purity" has much to do with whether or not they are still the same civilization. By that logic Canada hasn't even lasted as a civilization for 50 years, because there have been so many immigrants.

As to the changes in culture, as I said I find it likely that the changes in the culture there are not particularly more severe than the changes that have occurred during your 12,500 year period.

 

[Roboramma]

Regardless, let's not get sidetracked. Whether or not the Tolowa were a sustainable civilization for 12,500 years, the culture to which you are comparing them has not collapsed. It's like taking your 100 year old great grandfather and comparing him to a 2 year old: see, which of them seems like he's got better practices in respect to longevity?

We don't know, because the two year old is still 2!

Do you have a response to my post regarding repairing hydro plants?

 

[TFian]

I don't see how "racial purity" has much to do with whether or not they are still the same civilization.

Race has much to do with culture.

By that logic Canada hasn't even lasted as a civilization for 50 years, because there have been so many immigrants.

Canada is a melting pot nightmare.

Just look at California. Once a white state, now being overrun by Mexicans who by sheer demographic pressure will take it over and have it reunite with Mexico. And probably kill a lot of white people while doing so.

 

[TFian]

Do we? Perhaps because in those situations we use the cheapest available method to do so? You still haven't given any reason not to use the power generated by the plant to do the repairs.

What reason is there not to do so?

Because to do so would destroy the very energy infrastructure you're trying to maintain and repair.

 

[Roboramma]

Race has much to do with culture.

Not really. I went to high school with plenty of children of immigrant families. We all had much more in common with each other than they did with say, the chinese living here in Shanghai.
And I'd say I have a better understanding of chinese culture now than any of my "racially chinese" friends in high school did then.

Canada is a melting pot nightmare.

I wouldn't describe it as a nightmare at all.

Just look at California. Once a white state, now being overrun by Mexicans who by sheer demographic pressure take it over and have it reunite with Mexico.

I doubt that they want to "reunite it with Mexico". In fact, I'd say that they're very happy that California isn't a part of Mexico. Why do you think they moved there?

But seriously TF, this is getting far afield. Let's go back to the question of the hydro plant, shall we?

 

[Roboramma]

Because to do so would destroy the very energy infrastructure you're trying to maintain and repair.

How would it destroy it? That doesn't even make sense to me.

Do you mean in the sense that you can't use that energy for two things at once? that's not destroying it, that's using it for different things at different times. Let's see: we can either use 1% of our energy for repairs and maintenance and 99% for other purposes, or we can use 100% for, say, five years and then zero after that. Who in their right mind would choose the second course?

 

[TFian]

I doubt that they want to "reunite it with Mexico". In fact, I'd say that they're very happy that California isn't a part of Mexico. Why do you think they moved there?

Because Mexico could never take it over with their very weak military force, they have to invade a nation through over population. Most Mexicans in California are loyal to the Mexican republic, not the United States. They're race ties to their Mexican culture, they can never be Americans.

But seriously TF, this is getting far afield. Let's go back to the question of the hydro plant, shall we?

Alright, sure.

 

[ben m]

But that's wrong. The Italians do not practice any kind of Romanized culture, and worst yet, they are no longer racially pure, but now a bastardized mongrel version of their former selves. The Tolowa are still pure however.

What, the Tolowa don't have any commie fluoride in their precious bodily essence?

The fact that I looked up/computed *numbers* corresponding to your arguments, TFian, was a complement. It meant I took your argument as a serious one, potentially important if correct, and therefore worth checking. I withdraw the complement.

ETA: to clarify, your comments are racist and offensive. Woo and innumerate is one thing, but this is psycho.

 

[TFian]

How would it destroy it? That doesn't even make sense to me.

Do you mean in the sense that you can't use that energy for two things at once? that's not destroying it, that's using it for different things at different times. Let's see: we can either use 1% of our energy for repairs and maintenance and 99% for other purposes, or we can use 100% for, say, five years and then zero after that. Who in their right mind would choose the second course?

But it wouldn't be 1%, it'd be a large percentage that'd be wasted just repairing it.

 

[TFian]

Future computer-factories will be powered by (say) the hydro that's currently---right now, today, even though fossil fuel is still cheap---producing 20% of the world's electricity.

20% is an outright exaggeration and you know it.

... and it produces a monumental amount of power in return.

No it doesn't.

Again, you have a bizarre and limited idea of what people use the Internet for.

Most people use the Internet for porn and stupid youtube videos. Hardly useful in my book.

 

[TFian]

ETA: to clarify, your comments are racist and offensive.

Only to your sensibilities

 

[Roboramma]

Most people use the Internet for porn and stupid youtube videos. Hardly useful in my book.

They also use it for research, for keeping in touch with distant relatives, and for business. (ask anyone in business and they'll tell you they devote a serious chunk of time every day to email. Why?)

So, cool, let's excise all the things that you think aren't useful from the internet. No more porn and stupid youtube videos, because no one will be able to afford the energy to put them up or to watch them. Okay. Now the internet requires much less power than it did before. Which is exactly what we've been trying to tell you for pages and pages.

 

[Roboramma]

But it wouldn't be 1%, it'd be a large percentage that'd be wasted just repairing it.

How do you know? Have you actually looked at the numbers, or did you just make that assumption?

Is it more than 100%? Because if not we're still getting positive returns!
And guess what, hydro plants today must still be using that same amount of power for maintenance and repairs. If it wasn't economical then they wouldn't be economical today. If energy gets more scarce it will make more economic sense to make those repairs, not less!

 

[ben m]

20% is an outright exaggeration and you know it.

Let me Google that for you: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=hydroelectricity&l=1

 

[TFian]

Let me Google that for you: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=hydroelectricity&l=1

What a load of bull. 20%, someone's fudging the numbers.

 

[Roboramma]

20% is an outright exaggeration and you know it.

No, it isn't.

Worldwide, an installed capacity of 777 GWe supplied 2998 TWh of hydroelectricity in 2006.[1] This was approximately 20% of the world's electricity, and accounted for about 88% of electricity from renewable sources.[2]

From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroelectricity

 

[Garrison0fMars]

Because Mexico could never take it over with their very weak military force, they have to invade a nation through over population. Most Mexicans in California are loyal to the Mexican republic, not the United States. They're race ties to their Mexican culture, they can never be Americans.

Woah there. You need to put down whatever Pat Buchanan diatribe you sourced that from. Nothing of that sort is happening here (I live in California myself).