$10K fine for not going through TSA screening?

richardm said:
Sure, and whenever these machines are discussed, it is invariably that very image - taken as a demonstration image to be released - that is used as an example. I've not seen any leaked photographs from them. The old images were so poor as to be useless; it seems that the newer machines are much improved so perhaps the image security is also improved.
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Image security can be compromised as easily as taking a pic with a cell phone camera, no need to hack or have any technical knowledge.

The TSA assures us that the agents inside the viewing area are not allowed to have cell phones, but then again so are taxi drivers and yet every time I'm in a cab they're yapping on their cell phones. Do other TSA agents give them an enhanced pat-down prior to them entering the booth? I doubt it.
 
TragicMonkey said:
You know those black domes in the ceilings of stores, that are supposed to have security cameras behind them? I worked in four different stores in my youth, and all four had those domes. Not a one of them had a single camera, though. It's cheaper to just make customers think they are being watched than to actually watch them.

And some of those "alarm" tags on clothing are dummies, too, but that's less common because that tech is much cheaper than installing working cameras.
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Cameras are far cheaper now, and images can be stored on cheap hard drives instead of expensive VHS tape. A real one probably isn't much more expensive than a dummy these days.
 
WildCat said:
Cameras are far cheaper now, and images can be stored on cheap hard drives instead of expensive VHS tape. A real one probably isn't much more expensive than a dummy these days.
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Are you calling me old?

I'm willing to bet that most stores still don't bother, no matter how cheap it gets. That it's an expense at all, and extra work, is enough of a justification for many retail businesses to reject it.
 
Ocelot said:
Sounds like an interesting bet. Care to wage your Avatar on it? How shall we resolve it?
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I never bet, I can't sustain interest in anything long enough. And if I had a blue alien cat-head person to control I wouldn't be posting on the internet, I'd be robbing banks with it.
 
Skeptic Guy said:
What specific weapons will the back-scatter/enhanced pat down prevent from getting on board a plane?
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Ceramic knives, for one.

Skeptic Guy said:
I can think of at least one way to sneak on a plane with a weapon.
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I'm sure you can think of a dozen, if you try hard enough, and a hundred if your definition of "weapon" is liberal enough. "Making it harder for terrorists to bring down planes" is not the same as "Making it impossible for terrorists to bring down planes," and I think the point of diminishing returns was reached right after the metal detectors went up 30 years ago.
 
bokonon said:
Ceramic knives, for one.
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And what is the danger of a ceramic knife, as opposed to a metal one taken from one of the many restaurants within the secure areas? Will a knife bring down an airplane in a post-9/11 world?
 
When red tape causes madness: Man strips down to bike shorts for TSA, told to put clothes back on for pat down. http://tinyurl.com/22mrfvw

“It was obvious that my underwear left nothing to the imagination,” he explained. “But that wasn’t enough for the TSA supervisor who was called to the scene and asked me to put my clothes on so I could be properly patted down.”

It was clear to Wolanyk that TSA only wanted him to submit to a pat-down and if they were interested in ensuring the safety of all passengers they would have rifled through his clothes, carryon baggage and acknowledged that he was not carrying any illegal paraphernalia on his person.
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Orig article:

http://www.examiner.com/county-poli...a-airport-screeners-gone-wild-san-diego-again
 
And one more for today:

Citing national-security concerns, the TSA will not point to any specific cases in which a screener stopped a would-be terrorist at a checkpoint.
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How are we to judge the efficacy of the TSA if we can't see the results?


Source.
 
Here's a fun little twist:
http://www.examiner.com/county-poli...ine-cargo-checked-while-tsa-gropes-passengers

As Americans head into the busiest holiday travel season of the year, they can take comfort in the fact that TSA, CBP and DHS are assuring their fellow passengers are sufficiently groped, poked and prodded. Meanwhile unbeknownst to them hundreds of FedEx/UPS type cargo packages are placed in the belly of airplanes with little-to-no security scrutiny.
 
WildCat said:
And what is the danger of a ceramic knife, as opposed to a metal one taken from one of the many restaurants within the secure areas? Will a knife bring down an airplane in a post-9/11 world?
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I once cubed up a raw beef pot roast with a plastic knife from one of the fast-food places.
Don't tell me it wouldn't cut a throat...
 
I definitely agree that the TSA has gone too far. We can never be 100% safe, and no amount of safety is worth giving up the 4th amendment for.

In addition to finding the whole thing infuriating -- I'm amazed that politicians and a govt agency would be so tone deaf to how most Americans would react to this. Yeah, most Americans don't vote, they don't get angry enough about the amount of power lobbyists have over our laws and regulations, etc and etc.

But still ... politicians and bureaucrats really thought that most people wouldn't get extremely upset about nude x-rays and groping? Most Americans may be apathetic about voting and politics, but there's a lot of prudes out there! Somehow... I don't think this is going to fly in the end.

I wish most people would be angry about this because of 4th Amendment right violations, the inefficiency and stupidity of the new theatrical security procedures, and very likely abuse of the system by lobbyists and corrupt bureaucrats. But it looks like if our rights will be preserved, it will largely be due to the nations' prudishness.
 
bookitty said:
The only thing that could detect them are dogs, puffers or chemical wands. The TSA doesn't seem to be implementing more of those, they are now relying on nekkid machines and the fumbling hands of under-trained staff.
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I've been wondering if the backscatter machines/"enhanced" groping pat-downs have any advantages over the metal detector, bomb-sniffing dogs, and explosive trace detection (ETD) equipment combo?

Is it possible to make a bomb with various liquids only? Are there some dangerous liquids that dogs and ETD equipment can't pick up? Or are there too many candidates to screen for with dogs and ETD?

I've been surfing the net and it seems that bomb-sniffing dogs are definitely much more economical than the back scatter machines and that there are used by US Customs. It seems that the bomb-sniffing dogs biz lack lobbyists -- but other than that, do they lack any other advantages?
 
And now the TSA workers are crying because people don't like getting groped and photographed nude:
Union President John Gage called on TSA to provide an educational pamphlet to each passenger describing both their rights and the details of the new procedures, which include full-body scans and enhanced pat-downs.

“This absence of information has resulted in a backlash against the character and professionalism of TSOs,” said Gage in a statement. “TSA must act now — before the Thanksgiving rush — to ensure that TSOs are not being left to fend for themselves.”

...“Molester, pervert, disgusting, an embarrassment, creep. These are all words I have heard today at work describing me. ...These comments are painful and demoralizing,” one unnamed TSO posted on Frischling’s website.
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Boo freaking hoo.

Mr. Gage, people aren't complaining and calling you names because they don't understand the new procedures, they're complaining because they understand them all too well.
 
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WildCat said:
And now the TSA workers are crying because people don't like getting groped and photographed nude:

Boo freaking hoo.

Mr. Gage, people aren't complaining and calling you names because they don't understand the new procedures, they're complaining because they understand them all too well.
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A bit strange because we're hearing "If you don't like it, don't fly." Seems a little easy to reply, "if they don't like it, they can get another job."
 
TragicMonkey said:
Are you calling me old?

I'm willing to bet that most stores still don't bother, no matter how cheap it gets. That it's an expense at all, and extra work, is enough of a justification for many retail businesses to reject it.
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I bet you're right, and esp in the discount retail business. But FWIW, Macy's at 34th St in New York City has tons of tiny cameras throughout the store and even outside the store. The security department, per an agreement with NYC, surveys the park (tiny cement city park with benches where Bway intersects with 6th Ave). If any sales person suspects that a customers ID is phony, they can use code words to call up the security department whose camera system is sophisticated enough to zoom in and read the ID. The security department runs a quick database check while the sales rep pretends to be tied up with her manager on the phone.

I watched a security guard read an unsuspecting customer's driver's license that way. He was demoing for the seasonal workers* during our training period. We didn't actually get trained in anything -- the whole session was all about demonstrating how good Macy's security system was so none of the new hires would get any ideas about helping themselves to their own bonus.

Very cool camera system.


* I worked for Macy's part-time last Xmas season.
 
bookitty said:
A bit strange because we're hearing "If you don't like it, don't fly." Seems a little easy to reply, "if they don't like it, they can get another job."
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For the past few months the TSA has been advertising jobs widely in the local freebie newspapers. Perhaps the managment is expecting a lot of resignations?
 
bokonon said:
Ceramic knives, for one.
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What is a terrorist going to do with a knife on a plane that they couldn't more easily do at Burger King? They aren't going to take control of a plane with Katanas, let alone knives. At least Burger King has exits, the bystanders have options other than lynching the moron holding the melee weapon.

How many bomb dogs could we get for the cost of one of these voyeur machines?
 
Emperor_Gestahl said:
How many bomb dogs could we get for the cost of one of these voyeur machines?
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Let's see:
After Olaf's retirement in March, and if approved by the department, Blalock will pick out a new service dog at a company in Daytona, Fla., that trains bomb-sniffing dogs.

"I'll need to find which one is compatible for me," Blalock said. "Like people, it's a personality match."

The animals can cost about $12,000. Blalock will then test for state certification in Savannah.
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http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/archives/40053/

And:
About 385 scanners, each costing up to $170,000, are already in place at more than 60 airports. The TSA is adding more and expects to have 500 total in place by year's end.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...IoveAg?docId=5abb98ab98f442d791aa86cd63bdcfbf

So... the answer is 14. I have no idea how much it costs to maintain a backscatter machine vs. feeding and caring for a dog, nor the life expectancy of the machines.
 
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