Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Matthew Best]

So your claim is actually that what they were doing when the murder wasn't taking place is highly relevant, whereas what they were doing when the murder was taking place is not.

Got it.

 

[platonov]

So your claim is actually that what they were doing when the murder wasn't taking place is highly relevant, whereas what they were doing when the murder was taking place is not.

Got it.

The jury are tittering at this stage - better to call the next witness

.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Couldn't access it. Just got a big question mark.

The link is correct. Try right-clicking it to see if you can download it.

 

[Danceme]

As Katody says, the defence response on this is to state that while the scientific police obtained the measurements of the footprint by using a photograph which wasn't shot perpendicularly (and which therefore needed to be adjusted to take account of that) Vinci used a different photograph which was taken perpendicularly and carried out his own measurements based on that. The sentencing report assumed that Vinci's calculations would need to be adjusted in the same way as those of the scientific police, but in fact this wasn't the case (pages 185-6 of Sollecito's appeal):

I'm curious about this. How did Vinci get his perpendicular photograph? Was he there with his camera when the luminol was sprayed as well? I thought the only photographs that existed of the luminol images were those of ILE. Or are you saying there exists photographs taken perpendicularly by ILE but these were not used by Rinaldi, who instead chose to work from photos with more oblique angles?

 

[Dan O.]

.
You're right, Rose. Your image doesn't offer much information as presented:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/383964ce88426b0e47.jpg

However, the digital file contains the lines of the floor tiles, and in particular a police metric ruler as we can see here:


That ruler, in such an overhead shot is pretty useful for getting a good measurement and comparing it to Amanda's foot.

I see there is a definite distortion of the marker on the left. The sides that should be parallel have a relative angle of 1.5 degrees. And using the 0.20m ruler along the bottom as a reference I find the the marker has an edge length of 0.116m. If that's supposed to be one of the small 11x6 markers, it's a significant error. Can you explain where these distortions come from and how precise measurements of the stain are to be made from this image if the distortions cannot all be reconciled?

 

[Chris C]

The defense is conceding that Meredith could have been murdered by someone who left no DNA in Meredith's bedroom. Therefore, it could have been Amanda who left no DNA in the bedroom or Raffaele who left hardly any DNA.

Here is a new article regarding what the cell mate is suppose to be testifying to.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6271397-504083.html
Also, I believe he confessed to the Polizei that there was either a man standing over Meredith's body masturbating or that another man might have raped her. Which was later thrown out by Italy's supreme court. Yet you say the defense is conceding that meredith could be murdered by someone that left no dna. However, I've said it before. there is plenty of unknown dna in that room. It just belongs to someone other than Guede, Meredith, Rudy, or Sollecito. Thats not counting the untested semen sample.

 

[Chris C]

Or both even, or both of them plus Oprah Winfrey, Vladimir Putin and Carrot Top. Why not? If absence of evidence is no longer evidence of anything then the sky's the limit. We can claim anyone did it, unless they have an ironclad alibi... heck, as we've just seen, we can still claim they did it even if they do have an ironclad alibi.

Carrot Top is innocent. He's got an alibi. Though I did here OJ was visiting a relative in Italy before he was arrested once again in January 08.

 

[quadraginta]

Here is a new article regarding what the cell mate is suppose to be testifying to.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6271397-504083.html
Also, I believe he confessed to the Polizei that there was either a man standing over Meredith's body masturbating or that another man might have raped her. Which was later thrown out by Italy's supreme court. Yet you say the defense is conceding that meredith could be murdered by someone that left no dna. However, I've said it before. there is plenty of unknown dna in that room. It just belongs to someone other than Guede, Meredith, Rudy, or Sollecito. Thats not counting the untested semen sample.

What "untested semen sample"? Did "unidentified stain" get a promotion?

 

[Matthew Best]

Carrot Top is innocent.

I wouldn't say that.

 

[Chris C]

What "untested semen sample"? Did "unidentified stain" get a promotion?

What bloody footprints? Did they verify it was blood?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

What "untested semen sample"? Did "unidentified stain" get a promotion?

Fair comment. Although given the location and situation I think it's a pretty reasonable guess, we don't have 100% certainty it's a semen stain as far as I'm aware.

 

[quadraginta]

What bloody footprints? Did they verify it was blood?

I have offered no comments on footprints, pro or con, bloody or otherwise.

Perhaps you have quoted the wrong post.

 

[Jungle Jim]

Here is a new article regarding what the cell mate is suppose to be testifying to.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6271397-504083.html

The date on the article says March 5, 2010.

 

[Chris C]

The date on the article says March 5, 2010.

sorry, was suppose to be an S after new. Should have read news article.

 

[quadraginta]

Fair comment. Although given the location and situation I think it's a pretty reasonable guess, we don't have 100% certainty it's a semen stain as far as I'm aware.

What process quantifies "reasonable"? I am asking this in all seriousness.

My understanding is that this stain was found by agents of the defense team subsequent to prior inspection by the original investigators. What other information do we have beyond a reasonable conjecture that it was easily overlooked?

If I were to suggest that it might have been skin cream or a dab of overlooked make-up remover is there anything we know which would make such a supposition less reasonable?

 

[Chris C]

I have offered no comments on footprints, pro or con, bloody or otherwise.

Perhaps you have quoted the wrong post.

You argue that its not semen because it hasn't been proven. I just grabbed 1 of many things that i could say the same thing about that the prosecution used as fact to get a conviction against Knox/Sollecito.

They can't prove the bare footprints where created by blood.
They can't prove the bare footprints belonged to knox or sollecito.
They haven't proven that Nara could hear a scream that far.
They haven't proven its Sollecito's dna on the bra clasp.
They haven't proven Meredith died at/around 2330 hrs.
They haven't proven the Coroner performed the autopsy wrong.
They haven't proven the break in was fake.
They haven't proven there was a clean up......

I could keep going.

Yet, its seems the burden of proof lies on the defense to disprove all this stuff. The defense for some odd reason in this trial, has to prove all of that. Yet when they ask for a test to be performed to see if Nara could hear that far. Denied.
When they ask for the POSSIBLE semen sample to be tested. Denied.
When asked if further tests where performed to verify footprints where blood. They are told no. Yet later find out that atleast 2 tests where performed and both came back negative.
The bra clasp. They have to ask for it to be tested further to even prove its Sollecitos. The EXPERTS in the lab didn't bother testing to make sure.
The prosecution uses an expert to claim that the Coroner did the autopsy wrong and the witness didn't even review the autopsy.

 

[Draca]

If I were to suggest that it might have been skin cream or a dab of overlooked make-up remover is there anything we know which would make such a supposition less reasonable?

Crimescopes work by emitting differing wavelengths of light. When the crimescope picks ups bodily fluids they appear as fluorescent with some special glasses. This wouldn't happen with lotion, only bodily fluids. With the stain being found between Meredith's legs it's thought to be semen. I read somewhere that different fluids have a different frequency with the crimescope, can't say if that's true.

Frank Sfarzo speculated that both sides were fearful of what the test would reveal. The defense afraid of yet not another example of contamination. Although I would think they could pin point who the semen belong to.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/10/defensive-strategy-for-knox-and.html

 

[moodstream]

.
You're right, Rose. Your image doesn't offer much information as presented:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/383964ce88426b0e47.jpg[/qimg]

However, the digital file contains the lines of the floor tiles, and in particular a police metric ruler as we can see here:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_389264ce8f6b844881.jpg[/qimg]

That ruler, in such an overhead shot is pretty useful for getting a good measurement and comparing it to Amanda's foot.

What I see in either photo is something that does not look smeared, as though attempted to be removed via cleaning. It’s the luminol that makes the print visible. Without luminol, the print is invisible.

Therefore, the footprint was invisible when made.

If it was invisible when created, I have doubts that it can be correlated to the crime, because the print is solid. It’s not an outline or a few dots here and there connected by deduction, it’s a solid print, like those circles that have to be filled in completely on automated tests.

I just don’t see how blood could be on the bottom of a foot that way, so that every square millimeter is evenly spread with blood, and yet the blood not be visible.

If she dried her foot, then spots of blood and an uneven outline might appear in luminol, but not an even print. How can such an even spread of red blood be deposited and not leave a trace?

I must be wrong because I have not heard this argument before. I would appreciate if someone could educate me though.

 

[quadraginta]

You argue that its not semen because it hasn't been proven. I just grabbed 1 of many things that i could say the same thing about that the prosecution used as fact to get a conviction against Knox/Sollecito.

<snip>

I didn't argue that it was or wasn't anything. I didn't argue at all. I simply asked a question about how you knew what it was.

Are you sure you didn't confuse my post with someone else's? You keep responding to things I never said.

 

[quadraginta]

Crimescopes work by emitting differing wavelengths of light. When the crimescope picks ups bodily fluids they appear as fluorescent with some special glasses. This wouldn't happen with lotion, only bodily fluids. With the stain being found between Meredith's legs it's thought to be semen. I read somewhere that different fluids have a different frequency with the crimescope, can't say if that's true.

Frank Sfarzo speculated that both sides were fearful of what the test would reveal. The defense afraid of yet not another example of contamination. Although I would think they could pin point who the semen belong to.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/10/defensive-strategy-for-knox-and.html

The link you cite sums up with this comment,

In conclusion, for a number of reasons, we don't know yet if that substance is really semen.
It could, for instance, be vaseline, which doesn't have DNA and could go undetected with the swabs.

Please help me understand how "vaseline" is considered a "bodily fluid", and how this offers a reason to discount my supposition in preference to others.