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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I guess when Massei writes "used" he means "from time to time" like with the gloves that were "changed". Maybe the shaken photo was taken from a tripod, but it was a shaken tripod. The measurement Rinaldi screwed-up was definitely without any fluorescent tapes. Check out the photos and say if you see any.

With the long exposures necessary for photos of luminol scenes, it doesn't take much to blur an image - which is undoubtedly what happened here. Like you say, either the tripod was shaken slightly, or perhaps a remote shutter release wasn't used. However it happened, it was unprofessional and sloppy. Why am I not surprised?
 
I wanted to add that I believe I remember seeing this (an early claim supposedly released by the police that some prints were Amanda's) on a wayback machine search of some of the Italian news sources on articles that are no longer archived on the current site. I'll see if I kept that reference and let you know.

Well, the only bare footprint they had pre-December 18 was the bathmat one, and I'm not even sure that was ever mentioned or used as evidence until after April 2008 (when the shoe print evidence against Raffaele fell through). Obviously the shoe prints couldn't be explained by Amanda walking with bare feet after taking a shower anyway, even if they did tell her some of them were hers.

I would still say that the quite specific description of Amanda taking a shower and then using the bathmat to walk back to her room matches the fact and the position of the luminol prints too closely to be a coincidence (or at least provides a plausible innocent explanation for how they came to be there, made a lot stronger by the fact she mentioned it before they were known about). Any info you find out would be good, though.
 
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Your aim is worse than a county fair side-show's BB gun

As I've previously pointed out, there seems to be fairly good evidence that the police were acting in a strangely triumphalist manner that day, and locals are quoted as saying the convoy activity and waving out of the car windows etc was almost unheard of. This was the Perugia police telling the general public: "We solved the crime! Aren't we great! Everyone can feel safe again now."

And whether that happened with Knox, Sollecito and Guede in the cars at the time or not is immaterial to me (though obviously not to you).
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LondonJohn, if you have read this thread over the last day, and in particular my comment you cite, you'll see that I had stopped commenting on the prize-turkey-parade-through-the-winding-streets-of-Perugia issue BEFORE your last comment on said issue.

So, please direct your scorn in the direction of the poster (RWVBWL) who brought it up again, and not at my honest reply to RWVBWL.
 
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there are a number of different prints in the house which cannot be connected to the murder with any certainty since it's unknown when they were made, who made them, or what caused the Luminol reaction. The only thing we do know about them is that Meredith's DNA was not found in the prints.
No kidding.

Why don't you be honest and say that after the luminol testing not only Meredith's DNA, but no one's DNA was or could be found.

Normally DNA is not expected to be found in prints identified with luminol, as the luminol destroys it.

(in some cases it can be still identified, but in general, luminol is the very last test you apply)
 
Kermit said:
Normally DNA is not expected to be found in prints identified with luminol, as the luminol destroys it.

(in some cases it can be still identified, but in general, luminol is the very last test you apply)

Citation please.

Try googling.

Better yet, please show me a forensic checklist where Luminol testing is one of the first tests you apply.
 
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If it came back as Sollecito's semen, I would immediately change my view of him as culpable, since there's reason to believe this substance was still wet at the time of the murder. And if there was damning evidence like this against Sollecito, then I'd believe far more strongly in Knox's guilt too.

I think I actually said some time ago that if the semen turned out to belong to Raffaele I'd also flip to thinking he was guilty. I just think that it's incredibly unlikely that it will.
 
Kermit said:
Better yet, please show me a forensic checklist where Luminol testing is one of the first tests you apply.
So you have no citation. That's what I thought. What I did find, however, was this product:-

http://www.bluestar-forensic.com/gb/bluestar.php

A luminol product which does not destroy DNA. You don't appear to be telling the truth.
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If you read my post, perhaps expecting your reply, I didn't say that DNA can't be detected at all after luminol testing (read what I wrote between parentheses).

I don't know where you feel I'm not telling the truth ... what truth?

Anyway, please reply to my question about finding a forensic checklist where Luminol is the first test to be applied?

Why aren't the FOAKers complaining that yet another example of bad investigative technique is that the luminol wasn't applied on the night of 2 November 2007? It would have really helped push the investigation along, no?, to have had those footprints in the first week.:rolleyes:
 
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If you read my post, perhaps expecting your reply, I didn't say that DNA can't be detected at all after luminol testing (read what I wrote between parentheses).

Your claim was that nobody's DNA was or could be found in the footprints because the Luminol destroyed the DNA. Did you or didn't you claim that?

If you now state that you did not claim that, could you please spell out clearly your position on whether or not all DNA in those footprints was destroyed by Luminol, since research shows that types of Luminol which have been in use for the last 10 years do not destroy DNA.
 
Your claim was that nobody's DNA was or could be found in the footprints because the Luminol destroyed the DNA. Did you or didn't you claim that?

If you now state that you did not claim that, could you please spell out clearly your position on whether or not all DNA in those footprints was destroyed by Luminol, since research shows that types of Luminol which have been in use for the last 10 years do not destroy DNA.
Here are my words:

"after the luminol testing not only Meredith's DNA, but no one's DNA was or could be found.

Normally DNA is not expected to be found in prints identified with luminol, as the luminol destroys it.

(in some cases it can be still identified, but in general, luminol is the very last test you apply)"

The absence of detecting Meredith's or anyone else's DNA in the luminol samples is not the equivalent of saying that those prints are not made in blood.

The fact that in some cases DNA can be detected after applying luminol (which I recognised in my post) has not eliminated the risk that it may degrade the sample.

Otherwise, Luminol would be the number one first test to apply, which it isn't .
 
Here are my words:

"after the luminol testing not only Meredith's DNA, but no one's DNA was or could be found.

Normally DNA is not expected to be found in prints identified with luminol, as the luminol destroys it.

(in some cases it can be still identified, but in general, luminol is the very last test you apply)"

The absence of detecting Meredith's or anyone else's DNA in the luminol samples is not the equivalent of saying that those prints are not made in blood.

The fact that in some cases DNA can be detected after applying luminol (which I recognised in my post) has not eliminated the risk that it may degrade the sample.

Otherwise, Luminol would be the number one first test to apply, which it isn't .

So could you clarify exactly what you meant by the statement since the first line states that after the luminol testing nobody's DNA was or could be found?

Are you or are you not stating that the luminol test destroyed any DNA in the footprints?
 
Do you know that it would be unusual to detect footprints on a tile floor in a place where no crime had occurred? I honestly don't know, but the results from Raffaele's apartment suggest it might not be unusual.

Keep in mind that not only did the police do a TMB test that came back negative on every one of the bare footprints, they also did DNA tests, and Meredith's DNA did not show up in any of them. You are taking the position that the defense must explain how the footprints were made in order to establish a reasonable doubt. That is absurd. The forensic test results, in and of themselves, go far beyond establishing a reasonable doubt. They constitute strong evidence that the footprints were not made with Meredith's blood. Factor in the random locations of the prints and the lack of evidence that anyone with bare feet stepped in blood inside Meredith's room, and the net result is a practical certainty that these footprints have nothing whatsoever to do with the crime. They are random artifacts.

We are talking about footrints matching Amanda's feet on ascene where a crime occurred and where there are isolated bare footprints in diluted blood.
These footprints form a system showing non-random features.
Footprints all around the house, footprints forming a trail wpuld be a random artifact. It is not likely that only part of the trail is cleaned as thye wash the floor, because usually, in a normal routine, people clean the hole floor, not pieces of floor here and there. If part of the trail was cleaned in an operation of cleaning only part of the floor, you would see footprints cleaned by half, pieces of footprint left and remains.
The artifact in question doesn't have this random features, by which we could try to link it to "old" remains of normal operations. You cannot assert that you can expect to randomly find isolated footprints of a right-foot reacting to lumiol, and overlook any need of explanation for it.
Moreover the finding shows multiple footprints in Amanda's room, and no other similar "random artifact" in other rooms in the house.

About the TMB test, the fact is all literature says it shall not be used as confirmatory test, nor posively neither negatively. The TMB test used in this case is indirect, it requires the collection of a liquid sample from the stain, and this operation is itself an information filter. You know that Mederith's DNA did show in some of the luminol artifacts, and was also mixed with Amanda's. Some are in places where they should not be, like Filomena's room. How would you expect to find Amanda's and Meredith's DNA mixed on spot that reacts to luminol in someone else's room? How many odds do you think you have? We also know that Meredith's DNA did not show up in some traces that were visible and were blood for sure. And we know that DNA test may be not that sensitive and subject to deterioration when exposed for long to bacteria and agents (we are talking about samples collected several weeks later). This is expecially true if DNA is from white cell nucleus (very fragile) instead of epithelial cells. We also know that there were blood traces that showed only Amanda's DNA, primarily the blood drop on the faucet. This is highly significant, even if it is not Meredith's DNA. Bear in mind that I'm looking for evidence of Amanda's presence on the scene of murder, not specifically for Meredith's DNA.
 
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Moreover the finding shows multiple footprints in Amanda's room, and no other similar "random artifact" in other rooms in the house.
You know that Mederith's DNA did show in some of the luminol artifacts, and was also mixed with Amanda's. Some are in places where they should not be, like Filomena's room.

Would you please try to spell Meredith's name correctly as it's very disrespectful to her memory to misspell it, thank you.

The Amanda + Meredith DNA mole has been whacked many times, the Perugia Keystone Kops didn't bother testing for the other girl's DNA which was no doubt also present.
 
Are you or are you not stating that the luminol test destroyed any DNA in the footprints?
I think that the negative DNA result in the footprints is not an indication that they were not made in blood (ie. I think that they are made in blood).

One of the reasons for this is the possible effect of the luminol on the residual amount of blood.

Can you affirm positively that the luminol prints aren't made in blood?
 
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I think that the negative DNA result in the footprints is not an indication that they were not made in blood (ie. I think that they are made in blood).

One of the reasons for this is the possible effect of the luminol on the residual amount of blood.

Can you affirm positively that the luminol prints aren't made in blood?

Would you please answer the simple straightforward question i asked you, which was this:

"So could you clarify exactly what you meant by the statement since the first line states that after the luminol testing nobody's DNA was or could be found?

Are you or are you not stating that the luminol test destroyed any DNA in the footprints? "

Thanks.
 
Hasn't a big part of Amanda's defense been the lack of her DNA in Meredith's bedroom? Yet now, they want to present evidence that someone (the gangster's brother) could have murdered Meredith and left ZERO DNA or any other evidence!

If the gangster's brother could have murdered Meredith without leaving DNA then so could Amanda. What is the defense thinking?

Actually you basicly answered your own question There is a lack of Knox's DNA in the room. There isn't a lack of DNA in Meredith's room. Of all the evidence they gathered only 1 disputed test had either Sollecito's or Knox's dna in that room. However, there is plenty of other peoples dna present or possible sources of dna that hasn't been tested. Thats the question they are trying to raise. Why have the owners of the other dna not been identified and questioned. What if they take samples of the other 2 roommates and their dna is in that room. Would your opinion of Knox then change. What if the semen samples isn't Meredith's boyfriend. Would your opinion change? What about the bra clasp? What if they where able to identify the other 2 or 3 peoples dna that was present on it? Would your opinion on sollecito still be the same?
 
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If you want, I'll repeat it a third time

Would you please answer the simple straightforward question i asked you, which was this:

"So could you clarify exactly what you meant by the statement since the first line states that after the luminol testing nobody's DNA was or could be found?

Are you or are you not stating that the luminol test destroyed any DNA in the footprints? "

Thanks.
If you want, I'll repeat my first reply to your question, which it seems is not good enough for your objective:

"I think that the negative DNA result in the footprints is not an indication that they were not made in blood (ie. I think that they are made in blood).

One of the reasons for this is the possible effect of the luminol on the residual amount of blood."


Now that I've responded to your question (twice), and even if my reply is not satisfactory for you, please respond to my twice asked question:

"Can you affirm positively that the luminol prints aren't made in blood?"
 
If you want, I'll repeat my first reply to your question, which it seems is not good enough for your objective:

"I think that the negative DNA result in the footprints is not an indication that they were not made in blood (ie. I think that they are made in blood).

One of the reasons for this is the possible effect of the luminol on the residual amount of blood."


Now that I've responded to your question (twice), and even if my reply is not satisfactory for you, please respond to my twice asked question:

"Can you affirm positively that the luminol prints aren't made in blood?"

So just to clarify, were you or were you not stating, as you appeared to be, that the luminol test had destroyed all DNA in the footprints? A simple yes or no will suffice, thank you.
 
So just to clarify, were you or were you not stating, as you appeared to be, that the luminol test had destroyed all DNA in the footprints?
Yes. That is what I think, that testable DNA (halides could jump on me with his DNA on dust article) in the samples was affected by the luminol.

Now that I've replied to you three (or four?) times, let me request for the third or fourth time your reply to my question:

"Can you affirm positively that the luminol prints aren't made in blood?"
 
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