Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

Good to see you posting on this topic, Fiona. Do you have a new title in mind?

Or indeed, anything to add to the debate, other than calling for this thread to be shut down...?

 

[RoseMontague]

I doubt they could be great to the point of formulating a reasonable alternative scenario for doubt about how the luminol prints were produced, where Amanda jumps barefoot in leaps of 2 meters (straight and in angls) on her right foot to produce the prints in the corridoor and in her room, and the drops in Filomena's room, and a shoeprint, after having walked somewhere in a solution of copper salt.

I believe some of the prints were made at different times by different people. How many female reference prints did they have? Were they able to exclude Filomena and Laura and for that matter, if these prints were made before the murder, as I believe they were, some could have been made by Meredith. The court just assumes some of these prints to be Amanda's because it fits the theory, not because it is proven.

 

[LondonJohn]

John, the photograph was used to elicit the measurements of tiles, after the assessment that it was perpendicular.
Being accustomed with professional photograoy I can say it is not quite possible to assert a picture was shot "perpendicularly" with a precision remotely near the one that is claimed, and shot a photo "perpendicularly" is not something that can be done manually.

The post for you to answer was the one about hypocricy. Here seems you prefer to talk about a part of the appeal document that you haven't read, and you didn't get the process of measurement of the tile.

Err...run all that by me again....?

 

[Machiavelli]

How would a guilty Knox have produced prints where she jumps around as you describe? And what part of Knox was bleeding to produce these "drops" in Filomena's room? And which of Knox's shoes did the "shoeprint" belong to?

A guilty Knox and Sollecito would drag the bathmat along the hallway after having walked on bloody towels and rinsed their feet afterwards.
The drops are not actual drops, they are stains, produced by pressing a human part (maybe a hand still wet in bloody water or the tip of a foot).
The owner of the shoe is unknown. Maybe this is the Guede's shoeprint missing in the trail. If so, who cleaned the floor in that point is not Rudy Guede.

 

[Machiavelli]

I believe some of the prints were made at different times by different people. How many female reference prints did they have? Were they able to exclude Filomena and Laura and for that matter, if these prints were made before the murder, as I believe they were, some could have been made by Meredith. The court just assumes some of these prints to be Amanda's because it fits the theory, not because it is proven.

On what clues you believe analogue and so peculiar traces are produced independently at different times? And how many weeks each resisted floor cleanings?
Who produced the three prints in Amanda's room? They appear entirely compatible (identical) to the corridoor print deemed fully compatible with Amanda's foot. Morover, that part of the house was used by Amanda and Meredith. Why do you believe they belong to Laura and Filomena, when they are 100% comatible with Amanda's foot and they are found identical in Amanda's room, and not in Laura or Filomena or Merediths room?

 

[RoseMontague]

On what clues you believe analogue and so peculiar traces are produced independently at different times? And how many weeks each resisted floor cleanings?
Who produced the three prints in Amanda's room? They appear entirely compatible (identical) to the corridoor print deemed fully compatible with Amanda's foot. Morover, that part of the house was used by Amanda and Meredith. Why do you believe they belong to Laura and Filomena, when they are 100% comatible with Amanda's foot and they are found identical in Amanda's room, and not in Laura or Filomena or Merediths room?

The very acrobatics , hopping, and floating you described in your post argue that they are made at different times by different people and possibly by different substances.

 

[Machiavelli]

I can't see such assumption there. He obviously performed a perspective correction of his own using an Image-Pro Plus software.


I believe there are "interface" problems both in the appeal clearly communicating Vinci's methods and in your receiving that communication.

(..)

So if the text is clear, perhaps you can explain where it says which picture Vinci used to derive each set of his measurements. Which set of data is exctractd from what picture, on what picture he applied corrections and based on what data.

 

[RoseMontague]

Err...run all that by me again....?

Machiavelli has made it clear that despite language differences, if it is important, he could make himself understood. In the meantime, I think it can be translated as Amanda told Filomena she had already tried to call Meredith but was unable to reach her.

 

[RoseMontague]

So if the text is clear, perhaps you can explain where it says which picture Vinci used to derive each set of his measurements. Which set of data is exctractd from what picture, on what picture he applied corrections and based on what data.

If I recall the appeal points out that the prosecution expert testified he never examined the actual evidence of the bathmat print in person, in contrast to the defense expert. Do you have an opinion on that?

 

[RoseMontague]

On what clues you believe analogue and so peculiar traces are produced independently at different times? And how many weeks each resisted floor cleanings?
Who produced the three prints in Amanda's room? They appear entirely compatible (identical) to the corridoor print deemed fully compatible with Amanda's foot. Morover, that part of the house was used by Amanda and Meredith. Why do you believe they belong to Laura and Filomena, when they are 100% comatible with Amanda's foot and they are found identical in Amanda's room, and not in Laura or Filomena or Merediths room?

Amanda's footprint can't be excluded. Can you say that Laura's, Filomena's, and Meredith's footprints can be excluded?

 

[Machiavelli]

The very acrobatics , hopping, and floating you described in your post argue that they are made at different times by different people and possibly by different substances.

The very acrobatics and the exotic substance argue they were not made walking normally. They were not made in other way but in the one describd by Amanda in court, which is: standing barefoot on the bathmat and/or on a towel and dragging if along the hallway.

Unless you are able to explain why three people in the last days stepped each one in copper salts barefoot leaving one isolated print of right foot in the same area of the corridoor, producing no trail of prints, all the prints by coincidence being identical with Amanda's print, on different days. And they don't remember it.

 

[RoseMontague]

The very acrobatics and the exotic substance argue they were not made walking normally. They were not made in other way but in the one describd by Amanda in court, which is: standing barefoot on the bathmat and/or on a towel and dragging if along the hallway.

Unless you are able to explain why three people in the last days stepped each one in copper salts barefoot leaving one isolated print of right foot in the same area of the corridoor, producing no trail of prints, all the prints by coincidence being identical with Amanda's print, on different days. And they don't remember it.

It could have been weeks, not days. There has been no proof of who made them, when they were made, or what caused the luminol reaction. We do know that the second presumptive test was negative for blood and that is a test that rarely gives a false negative. We also know that Meredith's DNA was not found in the print and that also argues against them having been made in blood. I think Amanda invented the bathmat thing when she was told they were her prints and they were incriminating, just as Raffaele made up the pricking thing when he was told Meredith's DNA was on the blade. These kids have both been incredibly stupid in their dealings with the police, in my opinion.

ETA You said identical? That is a bit of a stretch, is it not?

 

[Katody Matrass]

I believe some of the prints were made at different times by different people. How many female reference prints did they have? Were they able to exclude Filomena and Laura and for that matter, if these prints were made before the murder, as I believe they were, some could have been made by Meredith. The court just assumes some of these prints to be Amanda's because it fits the theory, not because it is proven.

I actually find it quite probable, that all of the prints are Amanda's and very well could be a result of the Nov 2 morning barebottom bathmat shuffle (or getting out of the bathroom with one foot still wet). They are all of similar female size and shape, and all of them are right foot.

 

[Machiavelli]

If I recall the appeal points out that the prosecution expert testified he never examined the actual evidence of the bathmat print in person, in contrast to the defense expert. Do you have an opinion on that?

No. The arguments brought by Vinci (the "second toe" mark, the orthopedic report) to me are obviously weak and not standing.
I think the more the bathmat is analyzed directly and in more detail, the more incriminating information can be extracted against both Sollecito and Knox.

 

[Katody Matrass]

So if the text is clear, perhaps you can explain where it says which picture Vinci used to derive each set of his measurements. Which set of data is exctractd from what picture, on what picture he applied corrections and based on what data.

Of course he used a reference picture with a perpendicular metric tapes visible, which he precisely analysed in 3d.

What Rinaldi did instead, was simply make the tiles roughly rectangular (maybe by transforming the pic in photoshop) that's not the same as proper perspective correction.

When cross examined by the defense, Rinaldi was totally unable to explain himself, that's a fact.

 

[Katody Matrass]

No. The arguments brought by Vinci (the "second toe" mark, the orthopedic report) to me are obviously weak and not standing.
I think the more the bathmat is analyzed directly and in more detail, the more incriminating information can be extracted against both Sollecito and Knox.

Of course Vinci cannot beat your professional 99% confidence assesment

The fact that he corrected ILE on the pillow prints analysis and detected additional shoeprints that ILE missed notwithstanding.

 

[katy_did]

I actually find it quite probable, that all of the prints are Amanda's and very well could be a result of the Nov 2 morning barebottom bathmat shuffle (or getting out of the bathroom with one foot still wet). They are all of similar female size and shape, and all of them are right foot.

I think so too. I'm also curious to know how it can possibly be excluded that the prints were made that way, given that Massei says the prints were made in an invisible mixture of blood and water. How can it be ruled out that Amanda made them after stepping on the bathmat, on which there was a mixture of blood and water?

 

[RoseMontague]

I actually find it quite probable, that all of the prints are Amanda's and very well could be a result of the Nov 2 morning barebottom bathmat shuffle (or getting out of the bathroom with one foot still wet). They are all of similar female size and shape, and all of them are right foot.

I value your opinion just as I value Kevin's, but I also don't agree with him on the finger pricking. I don't see the bathmat shuffle story as very convincing.

 

[katy_did]

I think Amanda invented the bathmat thing when she was told they were her prints and they were incriminating, just as Raffaele made up the pricking thing when he was told Meredith's DNA was on the blade. These kids have both been incredibly stupid in their dealings with the police, in my opinion.

I could be wrong but I think Amanda first mentioned the bathmat thing in an interrogation in early December, before the luminol tests were carried out (and certainly before she knew the footprints would be attributed to her).

 

[Machiavelli]

It could have been weeks, not days. There has been no proof of who made them, when they were made, or what caused the luminol reaction. We do know that the second presumptive test was negative for blood and that is a test that rarely gives a false negative. We also know that Meredith's DNA was not found in the print and that also argues against them having been made in blood. I think Amanda invented the bathmat thing when she was told they were her prints and they were incriminating, just as Raffaele made up the pricking thing when he was told Meredith's DNA was on the blade. These kids have both been incredibly stupid in their dealings with the police, in my opinion.

ETA You said identical? That is a bit of a stretch, is it not?

And who produced the prints, and how, during the previous weaks? And why those people don't remember of such an unusual behaviour? And in what substance? And why they all resisted floor cleaning? And if the substance and the methods were common, why there are no other such traces in the rest of the house (instead there are similar bloody prints on the bathmat)?

I think your scenario is a bit too short of details. You shall better explain what is your idea to fit this data.


*

"We do know that the second presumptive test was negative for blood and that is a test that rarely gives a false negative".
How rarely? On wht dilutions? And do you know the methodologies of emply of TMB test? And in what the assessment of "negative" consists?
DNA from Meredith was found some in luminol traces and mixed with Amanda's DNA. Those traces were not prints, but the substance ws the same (as the light frequence is identical in all traces, this can be taken as reference: it is the same substance)


*

Do you realize the bathmat shuffle story was elaborated in court in a dialogue with her lawyers?


Do you at least realize there is a crushing set of evidence, or not?