Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kermit]

Well no. It wouldn't be a virtual parade because it was in fact a real parade or procession with the two other suspects physically present. i think this issue needs to be put to rest now because it's somewhat tangential.

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So, unable to prove that Amanda was paraded about Perugia in a police van following a purposefully circuitous route (which is what you and yours had been stating and trying unsuccessfully to support), you now feel that of the happy couple, it was Raffaele who got the guided tour of Perugia?

Loaded into a police van at Questura, driven around, and taken back to Questura ....

I'm not as sure as you that the issue is tangential. If a pro-Knox writer such as Dempsey feels that it's necessary to fill out her book with such a description (if it's there), and if pro-Knox blog posters such as yourselves feel that at least three of you should first of all bring it up then circle the wagons and try to defend the issue, it seems that it's important to you.

Capanne prison is on the Questura side of town. When the moment arrived for Amanda to depart Questura and travel to Capanne, I don't see the police van drivers as wanting to go up to the Piazza IV Novembre to show off their prize.

In the same way, in Amanda's trial sessions, I'm sure that the van drivers brought her to and from Capanne along their standard routes.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Latza's article has a new title now.

I wonder what was wrong with the "Could she go free?"

Barbie's summary of the appeal look a bit incomplete. Nothing about the witnesses that are shown to be mistaken. And does the appeal really gloss over the forensic evidence?

Talking about the knife it would be nice to mention that it doesn't fit the print on the bed, not only the wounds. Also the crazy Massei's assumption that Raffaele persuaded Amanda into carrying a 30cm kitchen knife for protection is worth mentioning. Together with the ridiculous nonsense that they carried that knife back and returned it to the drawer after the crime.


Anyway, IIRC it's like second time Barbie shows she's abandoning ship. Or maybe she's just turning with the wind. Since she just exploits that tragedy for the money, who knows, maybe she'll write another book about wrongful conviction this time.

 

[Justinian2]

Have YOU ever been to Italy?

I dare say you are wrong!

You're using an 'I dare say you are wrong!' to defend the Italian police with all that that's written on this subject? You're as lazy as my old cat.

However the point is well made that people assume they know the police and judicial systems of countries in which they've never been. In the USA, there is even a huge difference from state to state. As an American, I don't even know what the police in Texas and Alabama are up to. For all I know...

Got to pack!

 

[Kermit]

Where's an American DNA expert in Perugia when you need one?

Latza's article ... does the appeal really gloss over the forensic evidence?

I would think that that is perhaps THE key issue for Amanda.

Both her DNA on the knife, and RS's DNA on the clasp (RS wouldn't have been there without Amanda).

If it's true that the appeal glosses over the forensic evidence, and the appeals judge gets that feeling too, that won't be too positive for AK.

I told the FOAKers long ago that they should have incorporated Elizabeth Johnson into the appeal. I mean, why waste all the energy of getting a supposed (I don't say that facetiously) international DNA expert like Johnson on board, getting her on the main US TV networks, getting the discussion boards heated up then .... turn off her spotlight. (Actually, I had forgotten her name, and I had to google to remember!)

 

[Withnail1969]

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So, unable to prove that Amanda was paraded about Perugia in a police van following a purposefully circuitous route (which is what you and yours had been stating and trying unsuccessfully to support), you now feel that of the happy couple, it was Raffaele who got the guided tour of Perugia?

Loaded into a police van at Questura, driven around, and taken back to Questura ....

I'm not as sure as you that the issue is tangential. If a pro-Knox writer such as Dempsey feels that it's necessary to fill out her book with such a description (if it's there), and if pro-Knox blog posters such as yourselves feel that at least three of you should first of all bring it up then circle the wagons and try to defend the issue, it seems that it's important to you.

Capanne prison is on the Questura side of town. When the moment arrived for Amanda to depart Questura and travel to Capanne, I don't see the police van drivers as wanting to go up to the Piazza IV Novembre to show off their prize.

In the same way, in Amanda's trial sessions, I'm sure that the van drivers brought her to and from Capanne along their standard routes.

If you're determined not to let go of this bone, then I'd prefer not to risk a bite trying to take it from you. We've been over what happened many times now and the fact that principles of natural justice were egregiously violated has been established, unless you think the police, at the conclusion of the parade, did not announce that the case was closed. Is this what you are claiming?

 

[Withnail1969]

I would think that that is perhaps THE key issue for Amanda.

Both her DNA on the knife, and RS's DNA on the clasp (RS wouldn't have been there without Amanda).

If it's true that the appeal glosses over the forensic evidence, and the appeals judge gets that feeling too, that won't be too positive for AK.

I told the FOAKers long ago that they should have incorporated Elizabeth Johnson into the appeal. I mean, why waste all the energy of getting a supposed (I don't say that facetiously) international DNA expert like Johnson on board, getting her on the main US TV networks, getting the discussion boards heated up then .... turn off her spotlight. (Actually, I had forgotten her name, and I had to google to remember!)

There's no forensic evidence. Just white noise amplified by idiots who did not know how to operate their equipment according to the manufacturer's manual.

 

[Katody Matrass]

If it's true that the appeal glosses over the forensic evidence, and the appeals judge gets that feeling too, that won't be too positive for AK.

Fortunately it's not true.

I'm sure the appeal points out the unusual methods of Stefanoni regarding that knife. But what really seals the deal is the nonsensical explanation Massei contrived for that knife. We could maybe forgive Stefanoni and give her results the benefit of the doubt, if not for the ridiculous story needed to include the knife as a murder weapon.

 

[Dan O.]

If you're determined not to let go of this bone, then I'd prefer not to risk a bite trying to take it from you. We've been over what happened many times now and the fact that principles of natural justice were egregiously violated has been established, unless you think the police, at the conclusion of the parade, did not announce that the case was closed. Is this what you are claiming?

Kermet is simply trying to avoid discussing the embarrassment of the press conferences by focusing on one small detail that may have been misreported.

Your initial point that started this chain is still the most pertinent: "These things don't happen in Britain."

 

[Katody Matrass]

BTW I'm not that good in language subtleties , but is Nadeau bashing the prosecution?

parts of prosecution's case are preposterous

certain elements of the prosecution’s case are absurd

Judge Giancarlo Massei demonstrated in his 427-page reasoning that he and his jury took certain liberties and made a number of assumptions

But in the appeal, there will be no room for such conjecture

etc.

 

[Justinian2]

There's something wrong world-wide, if DNA on a bra clasp or cigarette butt can throw a person in jail for the main of his useful life (without strong motive and other essentials)

31% say Amanda is guilty
69% say Amanda is innocent
Total Votes: 430

Not that the majority is notoriously correct, mind you. Not that the majority can even think their way out of a paper bag. However I see some hope here not only for Amanda, but the majority.

 

[Kermit]

If you're determined not to let go of this bone, then I'd prefer not to risk a bite trying to take it from you. We've been over what happened many times now and the fact that principles of natural justice were egregiously violated has been established, unless you think the police, at the conclusion of the parade, did not announce that the case was closed. Is this what you are claiming?

"We've been over what happened many times", yet you're still not brave enough to admit that there is no basis to declare that Amanda was paraded around Perugia on a purposefully circuitous route.

With regard to what I claim, hell, I haven't claimed anything.

You want to redirect your argument, forget about the fictitious parading of Amanda and change the subject? Fine, for the sake of readers, who have already seen time after time how the pro-Knox folks can't step down from their highground, we can change the subject to something different.

Giobbi? Yeah, it was a PR mistake to announce "case closed" (he should learn from the pro's like Dave Marriott, but I guess he doesn't have the budget as others do - I would be fascinated to know what Marriott's agreement includes ... just payments against invoices? or % of book or movie royalties? someother combination?) . However, I don't see it as a big problem.

Less than 24 hours before, the case was still very much open. Maybe some investigators had doubts or suspicions about RS and AK, but it was only from when RS told investigators the about the "crock of lies", and Amanda blurted out "it's him, Patrick" (paraphrase), that the case advanced a number of steps.

Giobbi's enthusiasm should have been tempered by what he, and you and all of us know: that a murder investigation takes time, that this one, for as fast as it was going to take would require a year. And since we know that a murder investigation is never closed simply because you put three persons into preventative prison, I don't think that anyone can feel that somehow the suspects' possibilities of getting a fair trial could suffer.

I honestly don't understand what the hullaballoo is about with Giobbi. He shouldn't have been so enthusiastic in public. Agreed.

 

[Chris C]

I would think that that is perhaps THE key issue for Amanda.

Both her DNA on the knife, and RS's DNA on the clasp (RS wouldn't have been there without Amanda).

If it's true that the appeal glosses over the forensic evidence, and the appeals judge gets that feeling too, that won't be too positive for AK.

I told the FOAKers long ago that they should have incorporated Elizabeth Johnson into the appeal. I mean, why waste all the energy of getting a supposed (I don't say that facetiously) international DNA expert like Johnson on board, getting her on the main US TV networks, getting the discussion boards heated up then .... turn off her spotlight. (Actually, I had forgotten her name, and I had to google to remember!)

From what i have read of the appeal Sollecito's team isn't trying to gloss over the clasp. They are doing a full assault on everything dealing with that clasp. From contamination to the fact that no follow up tests where done to try and confirm it was Sollecito's dna from the PARTIAL match.

 

[Kermit]

There's no forensic evidence. Just white noise amplified by idiots who did not know how to operate their equipment according to the manufacturer's manual.

Well that "white noise" sits perfectly on top of Meredith's DNA profile.

Maybe you're right. Maybe monkeys jumping up and down on a typewriter could produce an exact copy of The Complete Works of William Shakespeare.

 

[Withnail1969]

Well that "white noise" sits perfectly on top of Meredith's DNA profile.

Maybe you're right. Maybe monkeys jumping up and down on a typewriter could produce an exact copy of The Complete Works of William Shakespeare.

It certainly does when you manually delete all the peaks that don't fit Meredith's profile. I'm sure any of us could produce this result after half an hour's training on Stefanoni's machine. (After breaking the seals of course).

 

[Withnail1969]

Giobbi? Yeah, it was a PR mistake to announce "case closed"

It's far from a PR mistake. In the UK, a comment like that would see him suspended from the police force while disciplinary proceedings began. That kind of statement could result in a charge of perverting the course of justice.

In Britain, we have an independent body called the Police Complaints Commission which would have been all over this dodgy case like a rash.

 

[Kermit]

Kermet is simply trying to avoid discussing the embarrassment of the press conferences by focusing on one small detail that may have been misreported.

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Well, I had decided to put the issue to bed, but since you have joined the fray, Dan O, let's talk.

You say that the "one small detail" about Amanda being driven around Perugia in a police van along a purposefully circuitous route "may have been misreported".

If it's true that Candace Dempsey's book includes such a description maybe you could ask her to remove it.

For being such a "small detail" you all have spent a lot of effort trying to reorient this accusation.
=================================

By the way Dan O., months ago you were going to tell us about some special evidence hidden in crime scene photos when one is turned to the left and the other is turned to the right. We're still waiting.

 

[pilot padron]

This thread has gotten bogged down in irrelevant minutiae again, I think.
So far all we've seen are evasive responses and outright denial of the facts. If we have multiple posters here convinced of their guilt, why can't we get a single coherent story that fits the facts, makes some kind of sense and has them murdering Meredith Kercher?

Your argument and entreaty above make me wonder if in fact you have read the 427 page Motivations Report.

May I, proudly presuming myself as a 'multiple poster convinced of their guilt', respectfully defer answering such an all encompassing request from you for the following reasons.

1)The 427 page report is certainly a self evident 'single coherent story that fits the facts'.

2) The presiding Judge, not only possesses daunting academic and professional qualifications, experience and peer renown, but has been physically present when the some of best attorneys in the land (similarly degree holding and professionally certified) tried their best *for over a year* to present 'a single coherent story that fits the facts and makes some kind of sense about their innocence'.(which rings strikingly similar to your above request).
They failed so miserably, that the guilty verdict was unanimous.
And here you now want one of the 'multiple posters here convinced of their guilt' to try to one up them. ?? Really... ???

3) You repeatedly insult the Motivations author and ridicule his lengthy and coherent presentation
Instead, you prefer your own non degree holding and non certified arguments liberally littered with 'Googly-De-Gook' cut n paste and, 'you tubey doos'.
You then further argue endlessly and irrationally that these arguments are 'scientific and evidence based' and superior to all judges, jurors, prosecutors and even your own pro innocent Defense Attorneys. Really...??

With this in mind, and cognizant of my own and especially others 'convinced of their guilt' very lengthy past efforts here, as well as my own humble training and certification as compared to Italian legal personalities enumerated above to answer such queries as you now throw out, you will understand, I am sure my reluctance to proffer a direct reply to your 'request'.

Finally, please spare us all the worn out tired 'talking point' pitiful knee jerk put down argument about 'appeals to authority' whenever a poster expresses agreement with the unanimous conviction of a horrific heartless murderess.

 

[Kermit]

It's far from a PR mistake. In the UK, a comment like that would see him suspended from the police force while disciplinary proceedings began.

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Why?

Because he said to the press "case closed"? I doubt it.

Because he acted on a witness's declaration? That in spite of having stated previously that she had not been at the crime scene nor knew anything about the crime, now Amanda had been there and could describe how Meredith was killed. Amanda the witness was no longer a witness (nor was she a suspect, yet), but it made sense to put her into preventative prison along with the person who she identified as the killer plus the boyfriend who was carrying knives into police stations and seemed to be part of the tale of lies.

I doubt Giobbi would be suspended for that either.

Patrick in the end got out (with no help from Amanda) and exercised his right to sue her.

The investigation, as was to be expected, continued for another year. Why suspend Giobbi because he thought that it was all over, when in fact Rudy was still on the run? The sentencing of the first level trial demonstrates that in fact the police were on the right track.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Your argument and entreaty above make me wonder if in fact you have read the 427 page Motivations Report.

May I, proudly presuming myself as a 'multiple poster convinced of their guilt', respectfully defer answering such an all encompassing request from you for the following reasons.

1)The 427 page report is certainly a self evident 'single coherent story that fits the facts'.

Nope. It has Meredith dying at 23:30, which is impossible given the state of her stomach contents, and it has Amanda and Raffaele both out and about from 21:27 onwards when at least one of them was at home doing things on Raffaele's computer.

So in some fairly major ways it does not fit the facts as we now know them.

What else do you have?

 

[Withnail1969]

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Why?

Because he said to the press "case closed"? I doubt it.

Do you even read people's posts? Did you actually read what i said about the police complaints commission?

Here is their site. http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/

NEVER, and I mean NEVER, have i heard a UK police officer say something like that at a press conference, even when serial killers have been arrested and charged. if they did, they would be suspended.

You simply cannot prejudice the right of the accused to a fair trial in such an egregious manner without serious consequences in this country. Thank God I'm British, for the police and the justice system, if nothing else.