Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

By the way, is there any firm evidence on how many times Sollecito cooked at the girls' cottage in the six days that they were together? Dempsey's book seems to imply that it happened more than once. She quotes Meredith's friend Robyn Butterworth as saying "Meredith was complaining that they (Knox and Sollecito) spent quite a lot of time in the kitchen."

I wonder if there's any grain of truth to Sollecito's assertion that he might have pricked Meredith with a knife while cooking? Since Sollecito invoked his right to silence, he obviously wasn't questioned about it in the trial. And I don't think that Knox was questioned about it either.

 

[LondonJohn]

Do they drive the suspects through the streets in a parade, sounding their horns as they go? And do the police publicly announce the case is solved before the trial begins?

Not only that, but before any charges have even been brought. And, for that matter, before the forensic evidence analysis and autopsy report have been produced.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a better investigative strategy was needed

You would have them both, or even PL, released after reading this, without further investigation -- or even reading the rest of the gift ??

Suspects the world over would would like to have you dealing with their cases [RG excluded of course] - victims not so much so I'd imagine.

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Platonov,

The part you did not put into bold was “but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.” Here is a bit more from Amanda, “The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.”

I would have released Patrick, or at the very least made a diligent effort to check his alibi at this point. I would have continued to investigate and kept Patrick under surveillance, but I would have let the forensics guide the investigation, not Dr. Giobbi’s concerns about swiveling hips.

Or better yet, I would have done the whole investigation differently from day one, perhaps as Ron Hendry suggested.

 

[platonov]

Originally Posted by Withnail1969
As Josef Goebbels once said, if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

I want to make it clear that I am not invoking Godwin's Law at this point.

I think Godwin's Law was amply proven on this thread many, many months ago

Does Godwin's Law cover misattribution of quotes to famous Nazis.

If Python is worth googling & posting surely Hitler is worth checking also

.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

high profile cases

SNIP
No, I am not arguing by anecdote. I presented evidence to disprove a highly specific claim by Steve Moore. When a general claim is presented, all that is needed to disprove it is the existence of one counter-example.

At any rate, I really don't think that you, of all people, would really want to pursue this line of argument. The countless other cases of wrongful prosecutions which you and other Knox supporters have introduced to the discussion here, in an apparent attempt to prove specific claims by comparison with other, unrelated particular cases, are in fact much closer to argumentation by anecdote.



I am suggesting nothing. As stated above, I was disproving an assertion.

That there was a cleanup in the New Hampshire case is at least possible, on the basis of the evidence I have seen. You have not provided any evidence that the crime scene was secured properly in the Spader case. You have not documented that the investigators attempted to find evidence, only that the prosecution did not present it.

I see essentially no possibility of a cleanup in the murder of Meredith Kercher: there are shoeprints in the bedroom and hallway, etc. Much of what the prosecution argued in the Kercher case is not worth a plugged nickel, IMHO. They have discredited themselves time after time.

Some people believe that no one would ever falsely confess to murder. In this and like instances, an anecdote such as the Norfolk Four is useful to disprove the erroneous belief. I also have used anecdotes about American cases to show that my criticisms of this case is not based on chauvinism. Finally, the number of high-profile cases is necessarily small. Using another high-profile case as an example of how the press and public react and comparing to this case seems to me to be a sensible way to proceed.

I am not sure that Mr. Moore intended his statement as an absolute, as opposed to a generalization. However even if he did, the Spader case does not disprove it. All you have given is your doubt that the prosecution would forego this kind of evidence. Yet, the Norfolk Four case suggests that a confession trumps DNA evidence. In addition Spader seems to be a defense lawyer’s nightmare as a client.

Again I ask you, what is your theory of how Knox and Sollecito committed a crime and left so little of their traces in Meredith’s bedroom?

 

[LondonJohn]

halides1

That just wont fly I'm afraid -- you cant place the blame for the criminal & false accusation made by AK at the hands of ILE.

Have you forgotten [or just not seen ] the rest of the 'gift'........the cops and prosecutors were so woolly headed they didn't & thus also took it into account .... for example.



You would have them both, or even PL, released after reading this, without further investigation -- or even reading the rest of the gift ??
What's that line again ......there are none so blind as those

Suspects the world over would would like to have you dealing with their cases [RG excluded of course] - victims not so much so I'd imagine.

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So you're claiming that you can't see (as any objective observer can see) that Knox's writings of the following day - taken as a whole - represent an extremely confused and frightened person who does not know by this point whether black is white or white is black?

What they most assuredly do not represent is a woman who was in any way confident of what she had said during the night before. In fact, she explicitly says that she can't tell what's real and what's a dream.

It's very interesting also that you chose to selectively bold a portion of your second quote from Knox's written statement:

I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.

Now let's repeat that quote, but this time with a different emphasis:

I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.

Interesting, huh? You forgot about the part where she's saying that she believes that the events she described at the house with Lumumba seemed more unreal than her original story of having been at Sollecito's house all night.

Now tell us all again that Knox "confirmed" her story of the previous night, and once again placed herself firmly at the murder house during the crime, with Lumumba wielding the knife....

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[platonov]

Platonov,

The part you did not put into bold was “but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.” Here is a bit more from Amanda, “The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.”

I would have released Patrick, or at the very least made a diligent effort to check his alibi at this point. I would have continued to investigate and kept Patrick under surveillance, but I would have let the forensics guide the investigation, not Dr. Giobbi’s concerns about swiveling hips.

Or better yet, I would have done the whole investigation differently from day one, perhaps as Ron Hendry suggested.

halides1

You were selectively quoting, quite blatantly - I was merely pointing that out.

Read or post the whole gift if you wish.

Yea, I get that - all fans of AK would have.

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[LondonJohn]

That there was a cleanup in the New Hampshire case is at least possible, on the basis of the evidence I have seen. You have not provided any evidence that the crime scene was secured properly in the Spader case. You have not documented that the investigators attempted to find evidence, only that the prosecution did not present it.

I see essentially no possibility of a cleanup in the murder of Meredith Kercher: there are shoeprints in the bedroom and hallway, etc. Much of what the prosecution argued in the Kercher case is not worth a plugged nickel, IMHO. They have discredited themselves time after time.

Some people believe that no one would ever falsely confess to murder. In this and like instances, an anecdote such as the Norfolk Four is useful to disprove the erroneous belief. I also have used anecdotes about American cases to show that my criticisms of this case is not based on chauvinism. Finally, the number of high-profile cases is necessarily small. Using another high-profile case as an example of how the press and public react and comparing to this case seems to me to be a sensible way to proceed.

I am not sure that Mr. Moore intended his statement as an absolute, as opposed to a generalization. However even if he did, the Spader case does not disprove it. All you have given is your doubt that the prosecution would forego this kind of evidence. Yet, the Norfolk Four case suggests that a confession trumps DNA evidence. In addition Spader seems to be a defense lawyer’s nightmare as a client.

Again I ask you, what is your theory of how Knox and Sollecito committed a crime and left so little of their traces in Meredith’s bedroom?

I'm not holding my breath for a decent answer to your valedictory question.....

 

[LondonJohn]

Platonov,

The part you did not put into bold was “but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.” Here is a bit more from Amanda, “The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.”

I would have released Patrick, or at the very least made a diligent effort to check his alibi at this point. I would have continued to investigate and kept Patrick under surveillance, but I would have let the forensics guide the investigation, not Dr. Giobbi’s concerns about swiveling hips.

Or better yet, I would have done the whole investigation differently from day one, perhaps as Ron Hendry suggested.

Ooh, great minds.....

 

[odeed]

Do they drive the suspects through the streets in a parade, sounding their horns as they go? And do the police publicly announce the case is solved before the trial begins?

Usually done when police are transporting prisoners to and from prison, and there is a large media/public interest which might slow them down. Sometimes it's done for the safety of the prisoner.

 

[LondonJohn]

Usually done when police are transporting prisoners to and from prison, and there is a large media/public interest which might slow them down. Sometimes it's done for the safety of the prisoner.

What if they do a totally unnecessary diversion away from the road leading from the Police HQ (on the edge of town) to the out-of-town prison, up into the narrow, winding, hilly streets of the old town? What about then?

 

[platonov]

So you're claiming that you can't see (as any objective observer can see) that Knox's writings of the following day - taken as a whole - represent an extremely confused and frightened person who does not know by this point whether black is white or white is black?

What they most assuredly do not represent is a woman who was in any way confident of what she had said during the night before. In fact, she explicitly says that she can't tell what's real and what's a dream.
It's very interesting also that you chose to selectively bold a portion of your second quote from Knox's written statement:




Now let's repeat that quote, but this time with a different emphasis:



Interesting, huh? You forgot about the part where she's saying that she believes that the events she described at the house with Lumumba seemed more unreal than her original story of having been at Sollecito's house all night.

Now tell us all again that Knox "confirmed" her story of the previous night, and once again placed herself firmly at the murder house during the crime, with Lumumba wielding the knife....

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Not at all Interesting.

AK in the 'gift' is trying to have it both ways.

Fans of AK want to have it one way - the cops are no so obliging when dealing with statements from murder suspects.

Further selective quoting wont prove your point - but it will mine.

And on this basis PL should be released.

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[LondonJohn]

Incidentally, I wonder how the campaign by Kermit (et al) against Rocco Girlanda is going? Any updates on that one, Kermit? Is it garnering loads of media attention in Italy?

And when will we hear from our favourite "professional defence attorney" on his plan to "take down" Steve Moore? I'm sure he's making great strides in his attempts to interfere in Moore's civil suit for wrongful dismissal against Pepperdine Uni. That must be why he's holding back on the "greatest" of his Perugia-trip video extravaganzas....

 

[Chris_Halkides]

horns and lights

Usually done when police are transporting prisoners to and from prison, and there is a large media/public interest which might slow them down. Sometimes it's done for the safety of the prisoner.

Odeed,

And the police drove through the old city and blared the horns to what purpose? A perp walk or parade to satisfy the curiosity of the media does not serve the public interest. Exactly the contrary; the publicity is prejudicial.

 

[LondonJohn]

Not at all Interesting.

AK in the 'gift' is trying to have it both ways.

Fans of AK want to have it one way - the cops are no so obliging when dealing with statements from murder suspects.

Further selective quoting wont prove your point - but it will mine.

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Razor-sharp....

I'll take it from your use of the the words "trying to have it both ways" that you'd agree that Knox did not in any way confirm the veracity of her statement of the previous night (in which she accused Lumumba and confessed to being there at the time of the murder) in her written "memoriale" of the 6th? That, after all, was what we were discussing. Unless, of course, you'd like to change the framework of the argument at this stage...

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[odeed]

What if they do a totally unnecessary diversion away from the road leading from the Police HQ (on the edge of town) to the out-of-town prison, up into the narrow, winding, hilly streets of the old town? What about then?

Any evidence of this, or are you taking your account from Candace Dempsey who repeated a single account from one article, despite all the media there from the UK?

 

[platonov]

Razor-sharp....

I'll take it from your use of the the words "trying to have it both ways" that you'd agree that Knox did not in any way confirm the veracity of her statement of the previous night (in which she accused Lumumba and confessed to being there at the time of the murder) in her written "memoriale" of the 6th? That, after all, was what we were discussing. Unless, of course, you'd like to change the framework of the argument at this stage...

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No - I was dealing with halides1's partial quote from the 'gift' & showing that the cops cant be as generous or selective in dealing with a murder suspects 'hedging' as fans of said suspect now claim they would have been.

No more, No less.

ETA In fact the initial point, which halides1 was addressing unsuccessfully, was about Moore's lie - which still stands.

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[Chris_Halkides]

citation please

Any evidence of this, or are you taking your account from Candace Dempsey who repeated a single account from one article, despite all the media there from the UK?

What is your evidence?

 

[quadraginta]

Do they drive the suspects through the streets in a parade, sounding their horns as they go? And do the police publicly announce the case is solved before the trial begins?

The term "alleged" may turn up with a certain perfunctory predictability, and "accused" will be given an occasional nod, but other than that such a display would not be beyond the pale. Sometimes the media is alerted so that they can be in position in time for the arrest itself.

I've pointed this out plenty of times before. When it comes to the art and implementation of creating a media circus out of a criminal investigation Italy can only sit with humility at our knee and learn from the true masters. We've been doing it so well and so long that even the belated, ineffectual efforts of our Supreme Court to try and stifle the most egregious examples are over half a century old, and remarkably unsuccessful. Maybe unenthusiastic would be a better term.

If you'd like a few examples, and can afford to sacrifice the brain cells, just dredge up some of the episodes of Nancy Grace's nightly HLN "news" program. She is among the worst, but only a small sample of the overall quantity of sensationalized crime we are inundated with here on a daily basis.

 

[LondonJohn]

Any evidence of this, or are you taking your account from Candace Dempsey who repeated a single account from one article, despite all the media there from the UK?

Well, here it is also mentioned in a report from the Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...737900/Amanda-Knox-guilty...-but-of-what.html

And the Daily Mail (this time with named quotes attached):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...737900/Amanda-Knox-guilty...-but-of-what.html

Do you have any good reason to believe that it didn't happen?