Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Alt+F4]

Any thing is possible where feelings are concerned. So, maybe we should stick to the actual evidence and leave off with the touchy/feely stuff that can only be guessed at.

Yes, stick to the evidence and there is no evidence that they were friends.

And you didn't reply to the second part of my post so I'll repeat it here: How do you feel about that Alt+F4? Do you think the hard drive should be sent to the manufacturers to see if the data could be recovered. It would end some of the arguments and speculation of one side or the other. We on the innocent side are all for looking at every little piece of evidence and having it all tested by independents come what may. How about the guilty side?

Are you saying that the prosecution is refusing to allow the defense to have the hard drives examined by the manufacturer?

 

[TomM43]

I'm not sure what point you are making.

If there is no sensible theory of the crime whatsoever, I don't think you can have proof beyond reasonable doubt by any amount of mental gymnastics.

If there are multiple points at which the proposed theory of the crime, which is the only one that even resembles a plausible theory that anyone can come up with, can be falsified then if any of those points are falsified then I don't think you can have proof beyond reasonable doubt by any amount of mental gymnastics either.

Guilters seem to want to embrace the logical contradiction of there being proof beyond reasonable doubt of a claim which they cannot construct a single remotely plausible narrative for, but when you examine the idea it's patent nonsense.

In your post to which I first replied, you asserted that the prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the burglary was staged, that the dna evidence was processed correctly, and the time of death. I assume that you think that everything used to support a verdict must be believed beyond a reasonable doubt. For example, I think you believe that since part of the evidence pointing to their presence near via della Pergola was the testimony of Anthony Curatolo, that they should not have simply believed him, but should have gone through a weighing process to determine whether there is any reasonable doubt that he was telling the truth.

My point is that it doesn’t work that way, that it is not the way American juries are told to function in their deliberations.

As to the expert opinions and the conclusions to be drawn from the dna evidence and time of death, juries in this country are not instructed that it is just not enough to believe the coroner’s or the state’s dna expert’s conclusions, but that they must believe it to be true beyond any reasonable doubt.

The staging of the burglary is a different matter; since it was a separate charge, that had to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. However, had this not been one of the charges, the jury only needed to believe from the testimony about the condition of the room, etc., and the opinion testimony that it was staged; they would not be required to find whether their belief was beyond a reasonable doubt in order to support , along with other evidence also believed beyond a reasonable doubt, a finding that beyond a reasonable doubt Knox participated in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Jurors do not have to believe the same thing about each item of evidence. It possible to have a case in which the jurors agree on very little about the case except they are all sure the defendant is guilty. There can be a unanimous verdict of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, even if each juror had a unique theory of the crime, and a different take on the significance of each of the items of evidence. That is the way in works in the legal system which you apparently think would have treated Ms. Knox much better that the one that now has custody of her.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Curt on the Chocolate festival

"Everything seemed to be meshing just fine," said Curt Knox. "I got to hear about [how] her and Meredith spent a bunch of time at this big chocolate festival. And she said, 'Yeah, we had the best time.'"

 

[Alt+F4]

Thanks for this information. That's 3 times more than the number of times Raff met Rudy Guede, and a more solid basis than the prosecution's claims for Amanda's acquaintance with him, yet we are supposed to believe that the 3 of them murdered carried out the murder together.

The evidence is that Meredith and Raffaele met each other only three time, and briefly. Didn't Raffaele and Rudy live very near each other? What is the evidence that they never met? As far as I remember, neither testified about the other.

 

[RoseMontague]

katy_did,
Here is the quote from rudy's appeal motivation report:

Nel frattempo, attraverso . l'amico Benedetti Giacomo, mediante contatti con il programma Skype, si appurava che l'imputato si trovava in Germania . (dove, tra l'altro, risultava essere stato denunciato dalla Polizia di Monaco, il 4 novembre 2007, per aver fornito le false generalità di Wade Kewin) e nel corso de! colloquio, oltre a dichiarare là sua estraneità ai fatti, manifestava la sua . volontà di rientrare in Italia, cosa che in effetti fece* venendo però arrestato dalla Polizia tedesca prima di varcare il confine.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

toasted toshiba and a chocolate carnival

Are you saying that the prosecution is refusing to allow the defense to have the hard drives examined by the manufacturer?

I have been saying it for at least six months. The defense even offered to pay for it.

 

[Alt+F4]

"Everything seemed to be meshing just fine," said Curt Knox. "I got to hear about [how] her and Meredith spent a bunch of time at this big chocolate festival. And she said, 'Yeah, we had the best time.'"

So when did Amanda tell her father about this? He doesn't say. The article doesn't say. Was it before or after the murder?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

photos on the hard drive

The West Seattle Herald ran a story "“Amanda and Meredith were very friendly,” said Janet Huff, Knox’s aunt. “Just two days before (the murder) they attended the Chocolate Festival together and had been out together to local pubs. There were quite a few photos of the two of them together in the days before her murder on Amanda's computer. Too bad the Italian police completely fried it when trying to get into it and were not able to retrieve a single thing."

 

[platonov]

What's the point of the fuss

The photographs on Amanda's computer have been discussed here many times. I suggest you read a message of mine called "toasted toshiba and a Halloween hello," which was in response to something you wrote. I note that you have not answered my question with respect to supporting release of this drive. Here is a bit from Anne Bremmer's web site.

"Only after these hard drives were thoroughly messed up did the authorities send them to a company that specializes in data recovery and has people who know what they are doing. This company was able to recover the contents of two of the hard drives, but the one from Amanda's computer was scrambled, and the company couldn't recover the data.

That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.

At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen. The only remaining option is to send the drive to Toshiba, the manufacturer. This would cost many thousands of dollars, but Amanda's family is willing to shoulder the cost. Unfortunately, the Italian court has denied their request to do this.

So as of now, the hard drive is in police custody, in a partly dismantled condition, and very likely holding evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox. "

In response to a question of yours several days ago, the subject of forensic bias has also come up many times here with a number of citations. The advanced search function should pick them up just fine. I also note the lack of citations in most of your comments. How about a deal? Start giving citations as frequently as you ask for them.

halides1

I'm not sure what the point of the fuss over the 'fried hard drive' is - it wont overturn the conviction.

Knox has been found guilty of MK's murder - a few photos, even if they exist, have precisely 0% probative value in this case.
Testimony about the relationship before & perhaps more importantly the behavior after the murder has been heard.
All this does is highlight the weakness of the defence case.
The fact that groupies think this will prove AK was loved by all - they adore her, what's wrong with the rest of the world - wont cut any ice in a courtroom. [Or maybe one can never have enough photos of Amanda to sigh over]

By all means allow the drive data be recovered BUT it means precisely zero.

.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes, stick to the evidence and there is no evidence that they were friends.



Are you saying that the prosecution is refusing to allow the defense to have the hard drives examined by the manufacturer?

The court disallowed an additional expert reports on the computers. That would include the manufacture as well in my opinion. This is covered in the Massei report.

 

[Alt+F4]

I have been saying it for at least six months. The defense even offered to pay for it.

The prosecution has refused to release Amanda's hard drive? Is this mentioned in her appeal? Sorry if this has already been discussed, I don't get the opportunity to read every single post.

 

[Draca]

Impossible for Amanda and Raffaele not to have left footprints in Meredith's room.

Another Draca Photo post. Probably the last since we've looked at the Meredith's bedroom pretty thoroughly at this point.

FBI agent Steve Moore:
"it is “absolutely impossible” they could have been in the room when Meredith died. There are no footprints of theirs in the blood. To believe the prosecution case, they would have had to have been floating on a magic carpet.”

So what is Steve Moore talking about? Below are a few photos to bring the point home. Remember in the prosecutions theory Amanda and Raffaele were high on pot and the murder was not planned. They could not have been carefully moving around the room purposefully avoiding all signs of blood. It is also impossible for them to have cleaned only their own prints while leaving Rudy Guede's.

The photo below shows most of the floor:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=169611656396647&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034


1. On the right hand side of the room by the window there is a line of blood going from the desk to the wardrobe.

2. The blacked out area is the bloodiest part of the room.

3. The left hand side of the room is smeared sporadically with blood.

The only area of the floor without a great deal of blood is in front of the desk in the middle of the room. This is also not a main area of the attack. The attack started by the bed, moved across the room to the window and desk, then toward the corner by the wardrobe and MK was found toward the center of the room. All the main areas of the attack have blood on the floor. Amanda and Raffaele could not have been involved in the attack without leaving their foot/shoe prints on the floor.

----------

Rudy's Shoe prints only. Amanda and Raffaele would have missed stepping here:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=169611656396647&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034#!/photo.php?fbid=169611653063314&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034&pid=445544&id=106344459390034

Markers A, B and C show where some of Rudy Guede's shoeprints were found. Amanda and Raffaele would have had to have missed stepping in any of them. Also the ones leading down the hall and out the cottage door.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well then Amanda could have hated Meredith on the night of November 1. None of us will ever know Amanda's (and Raffaele's) feelings about Meredith, right?

Well, we know that Knox sent a couple of texts to Meredith on Halloween night asking if Meredith wanted to meet up. That doesn't tend to support any sort of argument that Knox hated Meredith - quite the contrary in fact. And has everyone forgotten that Amanda and Meredith also went together to the classical concert on 26th October at which Knox first met Sollecito?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

moving goalposts

So when did Amanda tell her father about this? He doesn't say. The article doesn't say. Was it before or after the murder?

You appear to be moving the goalposts. It is one thing to say that there is no evidence, but it is another to say that one does not find the evidence convincing. I will await your research into this topic.

 

[Alt+F4]

You appear to be moving the goalposts. It is one thing to say that there is no evidence, but it is another to say that one does not find the evidence convincing. I will await your research into this topic.

Amanda's father quote in the link you provided is not evidence, it's hearsay.

EDIT: Why didn't Amanda's defense ask her about the Chocolate Festival hangout when she was on the stand?

 

[LondonJohn]

Sure, but that's still "days", and not "hours" (let alone minutes).

In any case, it seems that it takes 11 hours to get from Perugia to Munich, depending if you want to get there quicker, or with less changes (12 if you go through Rome)

You're quite stubborn about letting go of this "days" nonsense aren't you? It seems fairly well-established that Guede left Perugia at some point on 3rd November 2007. The phones and the murder were both discovered on 2nd November. Therefore Guede left the day after the phones and the body were discovered (both the phones discovery and the body discovery had served as the original reference point for the time after which Guede left town).

 

[platonov]

The West Seattle Herald ran a story "“Amanda and Meredith were very friendly,” said Janet Huff, Knox’s aunt. “Just two days before (the murder) they attended the Chocolate Festival together and had been out together to local pubs. There were quite a few photos of the two of them together in the days before her murder on Amanda's computer. Too bad the Italian police completely fried it when trying to get into it and were not able to retrieve a single thing."

Family of murderer claims there was no ill feeling towards victim.

In other news ...Bear seen heading for woods.

More at 11

.

 

[LondonJohn]

halides1

I'm not sure what the point of the fuss over the 'fried hard drive' is - it wont overturn the conviction.

Knox has been found guilty of MK's murder - a few photos, even if they exist, have precisely 0% probative value in this case.
Testimony about the relationship before & perhaps more importantly the behavior after the murder has been heard.
All this does is highlight the weakness of the defence case.

The fact that groupies think this will prove AK was loved by all - they adore her, what's wrong with the rest of the world - wont cut any ice in a courtroom. [Or maybe one can never have enough photos of Amanda to sigh over]
By all means allow the drive data be recovered BUT it means precisely zero.

.

See, it's facetious comments such as this which undermine all your credibility when you try to actually make arguments....

 

[katy_did]

katy_did,
Here is the quote from rudy's appeal motivation report:

Thanks Rose, I was sure I hadn't imagined it (either the detail itself, nor the fact it used to be on your docstoc page ).

ETA: It also sounds like he was charged with giving false details (as 'Kevin Wade'), so perhaps he was arrested? Hmmm, not sure. Sounds like a bit more than a routine stop at the border, anyway.

 

[Antony]

Again, there is no evidence that they were friends. Produce something that would indicated friendship. Even Amanda's writings after the murder don't indicate friendship.

I have qualified my use of the word "friends" by pointing out that Amanda and Raffaele were, at the very least, part of Meredith's circle. This is more than can be said of their alleged relationship with Rudy Guede by any stretch, yet it is a mainstay of the prosecution case against Amanda and Raffaele.

I am fairly confident that others will provide the stronger confirmation that you are asking for - such as the joint visit by Amanda and Meredith to the chocolate factory mentioned since the sub-thread arose.

You, in reply, have stated "Meredith and Raffaele were not friends". My view is that you have less basis for this statement than I have for mine.

AK and RS were not sentenced to longer prison sentences than RG based on fraudulent grounds.

Sorry - I meant that their sentences were longer than Guede's reduced sentence, not his original one. This should have been clear from the context of my original posting.