Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kermit]

I said she participated in an orgy? Where? I hold a position that there was no orgy at all.
So, according to you was there any orgy or not? How did Guede's DNA got into Meredith's vagina? Do you believe it was consensual?

.
I think it's quite clear from my comments that Meredith did not want to be either sexually assaulted or murdered.

There was no orgy except for an orgy of violence on the part of her attackers and of criminal complicity on the part of the same ones who abandoned her behind a locked door.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

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I think that Judge Massei wrote a pretty solid report, and I wouldn't presume that I could second guess him.

Massei doesn't go into much detail, but his implied theory is that Raffaele stepped in blood in Meredith's room, walked to the bathroom, left the print on the bathmat, and then he and/or Amanda cleaned away all the other bloody footprints.

Do you find this explanation satisfactory?

 

[Justinian2]

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I think it's quite clear from my comments that Meredith did not want to be either sexually assaulted or murdered.

There was no orgy except for an orgy of violence on the part of her attackers and of criminal complicity on the part of the same ones who abandoned her behind a locked door.

This herd reminds me of the herd in Ice Age.

We're family and yet so different.

 

[Withnail1969]

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In fact, whoever "he" (or "she") is, Nara Capezzali heard one person pounding up the iron staircase bolted to the stone wall her house is built on, and another, running towards Via del Bulagaio.

That joins up with the extramural road which goes by the garden where the phones were ditched. Of the two persons who Capezzali heard, the one running towards Via del Bulagaio could have been carrying the phones.

Witness: "Then I could hear running on the iron stairway ... "

PM Mignini: ".... this iron stairway where does it lead to?"

Witness: "Well it goes from the carpark and ends up at the Via del Melo, where there is an iron gate. And shorty afterwards to Via Pinturicchio"

PM Mignini: "Someone was climbing these stairs, this iron stairway.”

Witness: "Running"

PM Mignini: "Running, a single person or more than one?"

Witness: "At that point I heard a single person"

PM Mignini: "And someone else .... but was there someone else?

Witness: "Well, someone else ran away from the driveway toward Via del Bulagaio."

La Nazione 12/09/2008

an expert audiometric test was sought, to be undertaken to establish whether the witness Nara Capezzali, on the premise of the presence in her dwelling of double-glazed windows, was able to hear the noises and the screams of which she had given an account in her deposition; an expert report on the computers of the accused was requested, the memories of which were found to have been damaged at the time of the analysis of the supports carried out by the Postal Police, such that the hard drives could not be duplicated/cloned for subsequent examination.
The Court disallowed all the requests, on the grounds that the additional expert reports requested did not appear necessary,

 

[Chris_Halkides]

presumption of innocence and the appeals

Rose,

The prosecution has already met the burden of proof. Hence the conviction in the first trial.

Amazer,

The first appeal still begins with the presumption of innocence. IIUC, it remains until all appeals are exhausted. FWIW, I think you could rerun the exact same trial in front of a different jury and get a different result perhaps 50% of the time.

 

[Kermit]

Yeah, I'm convinced

Massei doesn't go into much detail, but his implied theory is that Raffaele stepped in blood in Meredith's room, walked to the bathroom, left the print on the bathmat, and then he and/or Amanda cleaned away all the other bloody footprints.

Do you find this explanation satisfactory?

I find the Massei report more convincing than:

- a Rudy who throws a rock to break a window instead of ringing-and-running to see if anyone's home.
- a Rudy who scales Filomena's wall in full view instead of climbing the natural ladder of the boys' iron grated door to the discreet shadows of the kitchen terrace (a zone he would know from visiting the boys downstairs and which was in fact used in the January 2008 break-in)
- a Rudy who, being a tried and tested human-fly computer thief (according to FOAKers), within moments of landing on the glass shards on Filomena's floor, goes to the bathroom on the far side of the cottage
- a Rudy who, being a computer thief (and computers are hard to trace) doesn't tuck away any of the computers in the house, including Amanda's which is on her desk.
- a Rudy who does a Rudolf Nureyev routine to wash his feet
- a Raffaele who still inexplicably (or maybe very explicably) hasn't given Amanda an alibi
- a Raffaele who told the knife pricking story
- a Raffaele and an Amanda who didn't cooperate with the investigation, invoking their right to silence
- an Amanda who blurts out "it was him!! Patrick" (my paraphrase)
- Double DNA knife
- Bra clasp DNA
- mixed AK/Meredith DNA on Filomena's floor
- well, you know the rest Charlie.

There may be some missing pieces to the 10,000 pages of evidence. If there are, it's a shame that neither Amanda nor Raffaele found the fortitude to help fill in the investigative gaps.

 

[Antony]

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A mobile phone is about a million times more traceable than a PC.

DNA is a much more condemning item to leave behind than a PC.

If there's nothing else of value in a students' cottage, then why even break in to begin with?

I don't know if you think you're convincing anyone who doesn't already think the way that you do.

It's not too difficult to comprehend that Guede didn't intend to kill anyone when he first broke in. Unfortunately for everyone connected with the case (except for the likes of Mignini), he had an unplanned encounter with Meredith which ended in tragedy.

It's also not hard to understand that afterwards he probably wasn't thinking very straight. After doing what he could to wash blood off himself, he completely forgot about his unflushed dump in the toilet, picked up the easily-portable cash, phones and keys and made his getaway.

On the way he had a think and realised that hanging onto the phones wasn't a good idea, so he got rid of them.

All of your questions are much more difficult to answer in the context of the 3-way murder scenario required by the prosecution narrative.

 

[Kaosium]

This means, your position is that all other judges and prosecutors are idiots, and scared puppets with no power, you think the system leaves them powerless, and that Manuela Comodi is Mignini's lap dog. You may also think that judges in Perugia are used to set their opinions on reading British tablodis.

Not exactly, I think that system provides too much power and latitude to one person. How many charges/arrests have been made in this tragic break-in so far? Solely to 'protect' the nutty prosecutor from the 'shadowy forces' arrayed against him? Or to allow the system to be manipulated so he could bypass the decisions of higher courts to the detriment of his victims, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito?


BTW, speaking of British tabloids, a while back Treehorn claimed that the 'Streets of Bagdad' Daily Mail piece about that noise violation actually made it into the court and was used against Amanda. Is that actually true?

 

[Justinian2]

I find the Massei report more convincing than:

- a Rudy who throws a rock to break a window instead of ringing-and-running to see if anyone's home.
- a Rudy who scales Filomena's wall in full view instead of climbing the natural ladder of the boys' iron grated door to the discreet shadows of the kitchen terrace (a zone he would know from visiting the boys downstairs and which was in fact used in the January 2008 break-in)
- a Rudy who, being a tried and tested human-fly computer thief (according to FOAKers), within moments of landing on the glass shards on Filomena's floor, goes to the bathroom on the far side of the cottage

Why does any second story man/cat burgular choose to break in via an upper floor?

What did Guede's interrogation reveal? Why did he break into the second floor? What did he say?
Theory: - He didn't want to be caught by the men living downstairs. He wanted to trap a female.

 

[Kermit]

Have a chat with Charlie

It's not too difficult to comprehend that Guede didn't intend to kill anyone when he first broke in.

Talk to Charlie, who a few pages back made a post insinuating a personality profile link between Rudy and some serial killer called Ramirez.

All of your questions are much more difficult to answer in the context of the 3-way murder scenario required by the prosecution narrative.

Oh I don't know. It's easier to believe that a murderous roommate would be more concerned about unwanted calls than a professional thief who disappears into the night. If Rudy was a computer thief, he may as well have taken a computer, or at least picked up Amanda's computer, for example, before discarding it in his getaway. In fact, Amanda - according to her story - was in and out of her room the next morning and noticed nothing out of place.

 

[Antony]

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Matthew, my fine gentleman, here we are getting to some common ground.

Rudy the burglar-who-surprised-his-murder-victim (which I agree sounds illogical, but we'll say that to suit your theory), either would have taken valuables (especially those computers which aren't really all that traceable, and given that FOAKers say he's a computer thief), or he would have left all valuables (to not have anything traceable on him).

Rudy the burglar-who-surprised-his-murder-victim wouldn't have had much time for niceties and small chat with his victim about her family's health.

Rudy the burglar-who-surprised-his-murder-victim doesn't fit in with a logical tale as you almost seem to recognise when you ask me why can dumping the mobile phones be compatible with AK and RS but not RG.

Well, you're right. Potentially Rudy could have dumped the phones. I personally don't feel that was the case, but it could be. His apartment is about the same distance as Raffaele's apartment (in fact a few metres closer) to the garden where they were thrown.

And the reason the phones were stolen and thrown is quite likely what we're all saying. But a burglar-turned-murderer who's concerned about getting the heck out won't be taking time to daintily wash his shoes, nor will he have had a chat with the victim about her mother calling. This sort of information would only be known if the attacker had been talking with the victim, or if one of the attacking party knew the victim enough to know these details and decide that someone had to ditch the phones.

The Lone Wolf Theory doesn't fit.

Sorry, you're not paying attention. Guede broke into a deserted house. He didn't surprise Meredith - he was surprised by her.

The other points are neither here nor there. There is more than one reading of the sequence of actions in the Lone Wolf scenario that led to the evidence that was left in the cottage, and it's no weakness of the theory that it can explain the facts in multiple ways.

In order to fit the state of the crime scene to their "4-way sex game gone wrong" scenario, the prosecution have had to invent an entirely implausible sequence involving an allegedly faked break-in and a fictitious cleanup (neither of which has the slightest evidence to support it). They then backed it up using abusive interrogations, and a retrospective hunt for evidence, conducted in a highly selective and irregular manner.

The fact that certain people prefer to cling to the prosecution's lurid fable than to the straightforward and rather mundane narrative in which Guede acted alone, says more about them than it does about the case.

 

[Withnail1969]

Talk to Charlie, who a few pages back made a post insinuating a personality profile link between Rudy and some serial killer called Ramirez.


Oh I don't know. It's easier to believe that a murderous roommate would be more concerned about unwanted calls than a professional thief who disappears into the night. If Rudy was a computer thief, he may as well have taken a computer, or at least picked up Amanda's computer, for example, before discarding it in his getaway. In fact, Amanda - according to her story - was in and out of her room the next morning and noticed nothing out of place.

Yeah. you definitely want to be fleeing a murder scene with some bulky, easily traceable items.

 

[el buscador]

Talk to Charlie, who a few pages back made a post insinuating a personality profile link between Rudy and some serial killer called Ramirez.


Oh I don't know. It's easier to believe that a murderous roommate would be more concerned about unwanted calls than a professional thief who disappears into the night. If Rudy was a computer thief, he may as well have taken a computer, or at least picked up Amanda's computer, for example, before discarding it in his getaway. In fact, Amanda - according to her story - was in and out of her room the next morning and noticed nothing out of place.

Hi Kermit, do you believe in the 11:30 PM or so time of death? If you do, what do you think Meredith was doing between her arrival home at about 9:00 PM and the 11:30 PM?

 

[katy_did]

But he didn't make his getaway until days after the phones were found!

A day later, wasn't it?

I recall Michael over at PMF making a similar claim about Rudy having only fled days after the murder was discovered. He was wrong too.

 

[Justinian2]

Hi Kermit, do you believe in the 11:30 PM or so time of death? If you do, what do you think Meredith was doing between her arrival home at about 9:00 PM and the 11:30 PM?

el buscador:

Good question!

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!

 

[Withnail1969]

A day later, wasn't it?

I recall Michael over at PMF making a similar claim about Rudy having only fled days after the murder was discovered. He was wrong too.

Thank you for clarifying that, katy_did. it's now pretty obvious that Rudy had an excellent reason to throw the phones away, whether or not he knew Meredith's mother was ill. Another lie nailed.

 

[Antony]

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Before you know it, we'll have food bloggers appearing here who state that Meredith was probably a bit hungover.

Or Christian soldiers who tell the Kerchers to support the convicted murderer of their daughter.

Meredith's (sole) murderer has had his sentence cut to 16 years, as a result of the efforts of the Perugia police, prosecutor and judiciary to conceal the truth of what happened to her. Meanwhile they have engaged in a disgusting and vindictive persecution of two of her friends, and sentenced them to far longer jail terms on fraudulent grounds.

Meredith's family can be excused for not wanting to question the official version of the case, as no doubt the details are too painful. What's your excuse?

 

[Kermit]

Try harder. Maybe a switch to S.I.U. from Daisyhill

Why does any second story man/cat burgular choose to break in via an upper floor?

What did Guede's interrogation reveal? Why did he break into the second floor? What did he say?
Theory: - He didn't want to be caught by the men living downstairs.

.
Ummm... Let's imagine the scene from inside the boys' flat downstairs if Rudy thought better to not disturb them. They hear a clanging on the metal grate in their window and look out:
http://www.asafehome.net/more_products_files/burglar-lurking_1.jpg

Edited by Locknar: 

Hotlink removed, breach of rule 5.

Keep trying.

 

[Withnail1969]

.
Ummm... Let's imagine the scene from inside the boys' flat downstairs if Rudy thought better to not disturb them. They hear a clanging on the metal grate in their window and look out:
[qimg]http://www.asafehome.net/more_products_files/burglar-lurking_1.jpg[/qimg]

Keep trying.

Second storeys were Rudy's MO. As an athletic guy with those handy security grilles to climb on, he was able to break in to the windows without grilles on the second storey.

Obviously he's going to check if anyone is in downstairs first.

 

[Kermit]

The Evil Prosecutor gets resuscitated (it's always handy to have a Bad-Guy to blame)

Meredith's (sole) murderer has had his sentence cut to 16 years, as a result of the efforts of the Perugia police, prosecutor and judiciary to conceal the truth of what happened to her. Meanwhile they have engaged in a disgusting and vindictive persecution of two of her friends, and sentenced them to far longer jail terms on fraudulent grounds.

.
Ummm. No, Rudy has had his first level appeal, and the standard reductions have been applied for the abbreviated process and appeal he went through.

Amanda and Raffaele have gone through the long trial format, and haven't yet had their appeals heard.

I don't know how you can compare the current situation of Rudy with the other two. They are different in timing, in charges, and in sentencing norms.

Now you transform that into some sort of "persecution" by the prosecutor. Prosecutor Mignini (I assume you refer to him, he's the designated Bad-Guy in this case, as per FOAKers) has nothing to do with sentencing nor reductions nor appeals.
===================================

Was Raffaele a friend of Meredith? You seem to imply that's the case. Do you think they cooked together once in the few days that Amanda went out with Raffaele before the crime for which they have been convicted?