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"Not Ever" - A Campaign Against Blaming Rape Victims

Is that really true?

It think that depends. The one stat I read said a male gets raped in prison every 3 seconds, and females (not necessarily in prison) once every 18 seconds.

In prison however it's the same male getting raped multiple times, so that translation from rapes to victims is kind of blurred.
 
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It think that depends. The one stat I read said a male gets raped in prison every 3 seconds, and females (not necessarily in prison) once every 18 seconds.

In prison however it's the same male getting raped multiple times, so that translation from rapes to victims is kind of blurred.

Source? I find it difficult to believe.

Sure some guys in prison must have a butt that looks like the Japanese flag, like we often say here in my country.
 
Is that really true?

Based on all the estimates I've seen, yes, most rapes in the US are male-victim if you include prison. Like 3bodyproblem said, though, more rapes doesn't necessarily translate to more victims so I don't know about that specifically.
 
No, that's the job of the father ;)



Typically dates don't involve being alone, so much as being together. If some guy wanted to cook my daughter dinner he'd be doing at my home while I was there but otherwise occupied.

Cell phones allow us to have contact with each other at all times. For a minor, I'd probably have some sort of structured reporting of some sort. The onus would be on her to not take off to some "Lover's Lane" and be alone. At that point it's up to her to make the right decisions based on what you've told her.

I think however as a parent you need to also let whoever she's with know that you know the statistics and will be monitoring for any signs. And that you can properly dispose of all or parts of a body.

(I had one girlfriend whose father happened to be sharpening knives or cleaning guns when I stopped by. I started collecting knives, and to this day have a rather nice collection.)

That's a good point. Being together and not on a group date doesn't necessarily mean being alone. When I think about it, when I dated in high school, it was always in public places - movies, restaurants, concerts, etc, and my parents only ever let me go to the guy's house if they knew his parents would be home.
 
So ... women are perceived as being unable to make informed and appropriate decisions when under the influence of alcohol ... but men ... men are just in the wrong, regardless?

This is one area of rape discussions that always makes me deeply uncomfortable, especially when discussing women who have sex and regret it when sobered up. Why are men held to a different standard? You've labelled them rapists here, without consideration as to whether they have made drunken decisions they may regret - the same decisions considered innocent enough in women to make them victims. Why are the men so much more criminal, and women are so much more victims?

You make an excellent point, and it ties in with what I was saying about degrees of rape. It's exceedingly difficult to have a dispassionate discussion about the subject, but the reality is that we keep lumping all sorts of acts together under the umbrella of rape. That keeps us from discussing the differences among premeditated rape, rape committed in a fit of passion, rape committed because of opportunity, rape committed while impaired and probably still others.

I don't mean to be crude, and I say the following knowing full well I catch a load of grief, but the evidence seems to suggest that men are, well, rather primal at times. If you observe animals mating in the wild, you'll often see the males going at it like crazy while the female seems to have almost a mild disinterest. For example, ever try to pull a male dog off while he's humping a female? It's not easy. Even well trained dogs disobey their masters under those conditions. What I've never seen is the female working just as hard to prolong the act.

Now, understand that I'm not drawing some bright line or claiming that all men are primal and no women are. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior. I'm not trying to simplify matters - I'm trying to show that it's much more complex than it seems.

Studies have demonstrated that college men shown erotic pictures immediately prior to reading stories about sexually coercive situations judge them differently (more "OK" with it) than those shown neutral pictures. A few erotic pictures are a much weaker stimulus than a flirtatious, scantily clad woman on a couch in her home to which he was invited. Add some alcohol or drugs along with kissing and other physical contact, and you have to wonder just how seriously judgment is impaired.

I'm not sure how to address the issue, but it seems one worthy of addressing. It seems that the "nice guy" you "trust" can turn into a complete ******* under some circumstances. Asking why some guys think it's "OK" to rape is all fine and well, but how many of those guys who think it's not OK end up doing something stupid in the heat of the moment?
 
There's no need for a young woman to be alone with a guy. We need food and air and water, and yes we are social animals, we need to be social. But it isn't essential that we be alone to socialize.
I hope you'll re-read this and realize why this is really a terrible argument.
 
That's a good point. Being together and not on a group date doesn't necessarily mean being alone. When I think about it, when I dated in high school, it was always in public places - movies, restaurants, concerts, etc, and my parents only ever let me go to the guy's house if they knew his parents would be home.

SC- forgive me, this is wholly off topic- but is that you in your avatar and if so, WTF are you doing?
 
She's obviously sighting down a Nerf bow.
My sibling and I had a pair of those when we were kids. Loved them.
 
When I think about it, when I dated in high school, it was always in public places - movies, restaurants, concerts, etc, and my parents only ever let me go to the guy's house if they knew his parents would be home.

And for good reason I'm sure.

Abduction doesn't seem to be a factor in the rapes among this age group. Victims are lured into seclusion. It's not unrealistic or impossible to emphasize this and make women aware of the risk. I think young women trust too much and perhaps don't see the danger because of the stereotypical image of rape. I'm not exactly sure.
 
She's obviously sighting down a Nerf bow.
My sibling and I had a pair of those when we were kids. Loved them.

Well-yes. Nerf? Perhaps. Could be any of several manufacturers.
My question is more along the lines of
Why the head-on-one-side sighting position?
Why the death grip on the riser?
Why point a bow at a camera in the first place?

Anyway. It's OT.
Perhaps a PM, SC?
 
I hope you'll re-read this and realize why this is really a terrible argument.

Negative. It's an excellent argument.

It's not essential or unavoidable. A young girl could have a very full social life, go to parties, drink, have a boyfriend, fall in love, be prom queen, win the state championship 400m relay all without having to be alone with a guy.
 
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Well-yes. Nerf? Perhaps. Could be any of several manufacturers.
My question is more along the lines of
Why the head-on-one-side sighting position?
Why the death grip on the riser?
Why point a bow at a camera in the first place?

Anyway. It's OT.
Perhaps a PM, SC?

It is a nerf bow, but it's no ordinary nerf crossbow. It is tipped in poison, and I have it as my avatar as a warning to my enemies.
 
Lul them into a false sense of security, then POW!, they're lying flat on their back wondering what happened.

(with the poinsoned nerf bow :boxedin: )
 
Negative. It's an excellent argument.

It's not essential or unavoidable. A young girl could have a very full social life, go to parties, drink, have a boyfriend, fall in love, be prom queen, win the state championship 400m relay all without having to be alone with a guy.


It seems SC already refuted it better than I could:

"you dont 'need' to do X to be fulfilled" is a bad reason to NOT do something.
 
First, it's not about being afraid. It's about empowering someone to know and make the right decisions given the information.

The way I explained it to my daughters and the young women I taught was like this: Yes, you are right, young men should not sexually assault young women but they do. It will take society many generations to put a halt to it and until that time you are the only one who can do something about it.

Second it's not about not having male friends. It's about not being alone with them. There's no need for a young woman to be alone with a guy. We need food and air and water, and yes we are social animals, we need to be social. But it isn't essential that we be alone to socialize.

I don't entirely agree. There are times that a young woman must be alone with a man and they should not be fearful of the situation unless it is warranted and then they should take that fear to heart and get out of the situation.

There are simple tell tale signs that women can use to seperate the predators from honest men. However, when in doubt, err on the side of safety.

If a guy is trying to get a young girl alone, that girl should be aware that his intention is to have sexual contact with her. That should be an immediate warning sign.

Absolutely. A predator needs privacy and control to attack. Take either away and you are safe. If, for instance, a woman is out walking with a man and finds they are entering a dark, secluded area, she can simply say "Hey, let's go that way where it's light." If he tries to convince her to keep going the way they were, that is a sign she is in danger.

However, the guy might not even have been aware of where they were going and just say, "Yeah, okay." In that case she is safe.

That doesn't preclude having male friends, and that doesn't preclude being alone with a guy. But at the age we are talking about that (being alone) should be avoided. And as I said before, it doesn't really need to happen unless they are intending to have sex.

I disagree because this gives the impression that a girl is only alone with you to have sex in which case everytime they are alone sex is the reason. However, I agree with the sentiment because, often, it is a long term :friend" who is the attacker. Usually though, he has given many warnign signs that are ignored because the victim didn't want to believe what they meant.

Knowing that isn't going to do psychological damage to a girl. And her social life isn't going to be ruined by not wandering off with a guy. You can be just as alone in a park in the middle of the day, as you can in some guys living room at 3AM. Unless you intend on drinking and having sex. Or raping a girl.

Once again it is assumed that because you are alone with the guy you are consenting to sex. That is exactly the wrong impression to give. Sex is only okay when both have agreed to it without threat. Being alone is not a reason for a guy to assume it is okay to have sex with a woman.

And a girl doesn't need older boys in her life to be fulfilled and normal. At that age a girl should be hanging around guys her own age. And guys that age should be hanging out with girls their own age. There's several reasons a 19 year old guy is hanging around 16 year old girls and most of them are bad. At the very least that should be avoided until college.

I disagree again. I think it is very important for young women to have good, older male role models. The primary reason being that they show the young woman how women should be treated and what behaviour is acceptable. When my daughters see me open the car door for their mother, my wife, them and any other woman in my life, when they notice that I do not yell at women, call them names, or treat them as less than an equal, those arew the types of things that they learn and insist on from their boyfriends, husbands and other male friends.

There is a reason dysfunction runs in families. Children live what they learn. Not only does an abusive husband teach his sons to abuse, he teaches his daughters to take abuse and look for mates who abuse.

Good role models help prevent that.

Again, that doesn't preclude them. It's just more information to make an educated decision by. And as a parent, it's your job to let them know you know all the reasons and you're watching.

Agreed. Education, not fear, is the best way for women to stay safe.

Finally, as far as alcohol and drugs are concerned it's illegal anyways. At least in the US, and up to 19 here in Canada. Enforcing that as a parent is your job. Granted, everyone drinks under age, but the specific risk of rape should be discussed and how alcohol factors in and how much more important it is to not be alone with a guy.

Agreed. "Just say no" doesn't work. (Nitpick: Drinking age is 18 in Alberta.)
If you can instill this in a young girl's head, she stand a much better chance of not being assaulted in her lifetime. 6 or 7 years of being hyper aware, and the only thing lost is this Hollywood romantic notion that you need to be alone with a guy to get to know him and bond. As if there's something magical about it. It isn't, it's what guys play on to get girls to let their guard down.

I agree. Girls also need to realize that their worth is not tied to some guy and that the chances of meeting your "true love" in high school are slim to none. That guy who tells you he loves you and will for the rest of his life is most likely not thinking past getting your panties off and doing the nasty. If he is serious, he won't mind waiting until you are both older.

One technique that was told to me by a friend was that when a guy said he loved her so they should have sex, she would ask him when they were getting married. The response was invariably "I don't want to get married!" To which she responded, "So, I am good enough to **** but not good enough to have your last name? See you later, Loser!"
 
You make an excellent point, and it ties in with what I was saying about degrees of rape. It's exceedingly difficult to have a dispassionate discussion about the subject, but the reality is that we keep lumping all sorts of acts together under the umbrella of rape. That keeps us from discussing the differences among premeditated rape, rape committed in a fit of passion, rape committed because of opportunity, rape committed while impaired and probably still others.

I don't mean to be crude, and I say the following knowing full well I catch a load of grief, but the evidence seems to suggest that men are, well, rather primal at times. If you observe animals mating in the wild, you'll often see the males going at it like crazy while the female seems to have almost a mild disinterest. For example, ever try to pull a male dog off while he's humping a female? It's not easy. Even well trained dogs disobey their masters under those conditions. What I've never seen is the female working just as hard to prolong the act.

Now, understand that I'm not drawing some bright line or claiming that all men are primal and no women are. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior. I'm not trying to simplify matters - I'm trying to show that it's much more complex than it seems.

Studies have demonstrated that college men shown erotic pictures immediately prior to reading stories about sexually coercive situations judge them differently (more "OK" with it) than those shown neutral pictures. A few erotic pictures are a much weaker stimulus than a flirtatious, scantily clad woman on a couch in her home to which he was invited. Add some alcohol or drugs along with kissing and other physical contact, and you have to wonder just how seriously judgment is impaired.

I'm not sure how to address the issue, but it seems one worthy of addressing. It seems that the "nice guy" you "trust" can turn into a complete ******* under some circumstances. Asking why some guys think it's "OK" to rape is all fine and well, but how many of those guys who think it's not OK end up doing something stupid in the heat of the moment?

I completely agree with you and I brought all this up when I taught women's self defence. I also made it clear that "changing your mind" =/= "rape". Regrets are a normal part of life and if you regret having sex with someone, don't do it again and don't pretend it was rape.
 
The way I explained it to my daughters and the young women I taught was like this: Yes, you are right, young men should not sexually assault young women but they do. It will take society many generations to put a halt to it and until that time you are the only one who can do something about it.

Exactly true.

I don't entirely agree. There are times that a young woman must be alone with a man and they should not be fearful of the situation unless it is warranted and then they should take that fear to heart and get out of the situation.

"Fear" seems too strong a word. If she's been careful and made observations based on the information you've given her, she should know who is just a friend, and who is perhaps looking for more. Guys are pretty obvious at this age. A girl should be able to tell the difference between a guy from drama class looking to rehearse his lines and a guy who happens to be at her locker in between classes and sits behind her in 3.
I'm just saying there's a difference between "fear" and "wary".

There are simple tell tale signs that women can use to seperate the predators from honest men. However, when in doubt, err on the side of safety.

Exactly, and I think a girl should also not be afraid to be firm and decisive. From what I recall, some girls may be afraid to seem like a "bitch" and instead inadvertently string a guy along. At that age you can't expect a guy to "just be friends".


I disagree because this gives the impression that a girl is only alone with you to have sex in which case everytime they are alone sex is the reason. However, I agree with the sentiment because, often, it is a long term :friend" who is the attacker. Usually though, he has given many warnign signs that are ignored because the victim didn't want to believe what they meant.

And yet we err on the side of caution.

What you're describing here is a Pavlovian response. Being alone and expecting sex isn't like ringing a bell and expecting food. I just think it's easier for a woman to control the situation and avoid being alone with guys altogether, than try to control it once they are alone.


I disagree again. I think it is very important for young women to have good, older male role models. The primary reason being that they show the young woman how women should be treated and what behaviour is acceptable.

I don't believe 19 or 20 year old men are or can be male role models for 16 year old girls. I think perhaps you are talking about men outside of this "target" group. It's really only about men under the age of 25, although there was some discussion about pervs chasing 16 year olds.


In this thread alone some very good ideas for how educate young women and men have been brought up that I don't think this campaign comes near to addressing. While it has some merit, I still believe there are many more effective things to spend money and time on. I'm still concerned that this campaign could do more harm than good in the way "don't blame the victim" has a tendency to shut down discussion. That's unfortunate because it seems like assault on women is something very horrible that could potentially be improved dramatically.
 
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"Fear" seems too strong a word. If she's been careful and made observations based on the information you've given her, she should know who is just a friend, and who is perhaps looking for more. Guys are pretty obvious at this age. A girl should be able to tell the difference between a guy from drama class looking to rehearse his lines and a guy who happens to be at her locker in between classes and sits behind her in 3.
I'm just saying there's a difference between "fear" and "wary".

Now I understand what you meant and I agree. I think the important thing is to teach children tools they can use to protect themselves which put little or no limits on how they live their lives. These tools will be useful in many situations throughout their lives and they will do them without even being aware of it.

I use the analogy of a person walking through the woods and not seeing any wildlife even though wildlife is abundant. They assume the wildlife isn't there but really the wildlife just avoided them without them even knowing it. That is the ultimate self defence. Automatically recognizing the first hints of danger and avoiding it completely.

Exactly, and I think a girl should also not be afraid to be firm and decisive. From what I recall, some girls may be afraid to seem like a "bitch" and instead inadvertently string a guy along. At that age you can't expect a guy to "just be friends".

Couldn't agree more. This is imperative. I told my daughters that it is perfectly fine for people who you don't want in your life to think you are a bitch.

I like what Gavin DeBecker had to say about this. He said, "When a male says "No!" it means "No!" but when a woman says know it is the opening to negotiations." (paraphrased)

And it is so true but that isn't just men's fault, it is a learned behaviour. How many times have you heard women say they want nothing to do with their former boyfriend because he is abusive and violent but they take his phone calls, read his letters and cards or take messages from his friends.

They have to be very decisive or their "No!" has become a simple negotiation and eventually the guy will wear her down and she will be doing something she didn't want to do.

And yet we err on the side of caution.

What you're describing here is a Pavlovian response. Being alone and expecting sex isn't like ringing a bell and expecting food. I just think it's easier for a woman to control the situation and avoid being alone with guys altogether, than try to control it once they are alone.

Yes, agreed. The only thing I would see as different is that sometimes a girl has to be alone with a guy, perhaps at work, school, etc. and that she needs to have the tools to address it when it happens and not panic.

Another lesson I taught my daughters was this: If you are raped we can't do anything to change that fact. We can only change the situation before it happens and that is my job to teach you the tools and your job to apply them. And the #1 tool is: Don't put yourself into the situation if you can avoid it.

I don't believe 19 or 20 year old men are or can be male role models for 16 year old girls. I think perhaps you are talking about men outside of this "target" group. It's really only about men under the age of 25, although there was some discussion about pervs chasing 16 year olds.

Agreed on the role model thing. On the issue of pervs chasing 16 year olds: There was a study done awhile back in British Columbia where they found that the vast majority of girls under 16 who became pregnant got that way by having sex with a male in their 30's.

In this thread alone some very good ideas for how educate young women and men have been brought up that I don't think this campaign comes near to addressing. While it has some merit, I still believe there are many more effective things to spend money and time on. I'm still concerned that this campaign could do more harm than good in the way "don't blame the victim" has a tendency to shut down discussion. That's unfortunate because it seems like assault on women is something very horrible that could potentially be improved dramatically.

Exactly. That is one of the reasons I seldom get involved in these discussions. There is always a person who says that when you teach a girl to not put herself into a dangerous situation you are blaming the victim. My answer to that is, "she isn't a victim and if she learns this stuff she never will be." I'm not blaming a victim, I'm protecting a young lady who has a right to a great life, free from the ramifications of being attacked.

Nice talking to you.
 

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