Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[katy_did]

Didn't SomeAlibi say that it was during the interval before 6:30 that Raffaele was loading the "Clean up, clean up, everybody clean up" song onto his iPod?

Not just a song but an entire 'clean-up' playlist, I believe. Perhaps that explains all the activity. He must've had to look pretty hard to find enough clean-up themed songs.

 

[Alt+F4]

When the paper was discussed on PMF, the posters missed the point by arguing that anyone charged with murder would be held in custody in most countries. Although this might be true, the point of the paper is that Knox and Sollecito (and Guede, for that matter) were held without charge. While the author gets some details of the case wrong, I think his legal arguments are convincing. I look forward to your more detailed analysis of that side of things, however.

Katy, do you know that the author of that piece of garbage repeats the falsehood that:

Only a day after Meredith’s body was found, Amanda and Sollecito were shown buying lingerie and discussing plans of “wild sex” on a video from a store security camera...

And his explaination for her "callous behavior"?
​

people who know Amanda believe she was simply oblivious to the severity of the situation

 

[quadraginta]

Which films did they watch for 12 hours, from what I remember the alibi was that they talked, watched a film, ate dinner, cleaned up the spilt water, had sex then slept.

And for the twelve hours the screensaver did not activate which somehow proves there was human interaction on the laptop?

It probably isn't relevant to anything, and I do not offer this in defense of any theory either for or against guilt, but as I sat here catching up on this thread this morning it occurred to me that when I go to bed I close my laptop on the table and when I get up the next morning I open it again. This results in no human activity for some hours and also no screensaver activity.

I have no idea where logging of the lid closing and subsequent blanking (not screensaver) of the screen might be stored, if at all. I expect it probably is ... somewhere. Perhaps not. Other behaviors are dictated by the settings I have chosen for the power management scheme. Both for on line power and on battery power. The possible permutations of these are considerable, but, at least in XP Pro on an R51 Thinkpad, closing the lid does not generally affect them without explicitly instructing that it does so..

My own usage has led me to learn (after some unplanned interruptions ) that when engaged in such activities as viewing movies it is best to use a "Presentation" setting, configured to leave disk and monitor on at all times. Again this is irrespective of the status of the laptop lid, except that the screen is still blanked when the lid is closed. ("Close the door and the light goes out!!! )

 

[katy_did]

Katy, do you know that the author of that piece of garbage repeats the falsehood that:

And his explaination for her "callous behavior"?
​

​

I got the impression the author was more interested in the legal aspects of the case than the kinds of discussions we might have on here (did they/didn't they talk about wild sex? Etc). He relies quite a bit on newspaper reports for his information on details of the case, and so there are some inaccuracies (always referenced, however, so you can check the source for yourself) but I don't see that that invalidates his factual legal arguments. I'd argue that the details he gets wrong have little bearing on the legal arguments he makes, and so have to be filtered out in considering what he has to say.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

polymerase chain reaction

1) Waterbury's PhD is in Materials Science - what the hell does he know about LCN DNA?! (My guess: Less than a 2nd year Genetics Major!)

2) I absolutely L O V E your use of the phrase "parsimonious explanation"! Why are you nowhere near as 'charitable' vis-à-vis the assertions of "guilters"???

3) You don't seriously consider his 'theory' about Guede as passing, shall we say, the 'air of reality test' do you?!

In light of Guede's conviction (30 years, reduced to 16 on a 'technicality' related to the election of 'fast track' trials), how on earth can it be said that the (alleged) wrongful conviction of 2 "innocent" college kids functioned so as to mitigate Guede's legal consequences/ penalties?!

That's beyond absurd. Admit it.

treehorn,

1. PCR can be thought of as a surface chemistry phenomenon; I can see why a materials scientist would be interested for its own sake. Beyond that, Dr. Waterbury's posts are checked by an anonymous forensic geneticist. I have a Ph.D. in biochemistry and I have not found any errors in what he wrote.

3. Guede received a sentence reduction in addition for mitigation (I am not sure if that is the correct term) in addition for taking the fast-track option. That reduction was not appealed by the prosecution.

 

[Mary_H]

That makes sense now. He may have been loading up '101 Housework Songs' available from Amazon for just £7.99.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Housework-Songs-Vol-1-Various-Artists/dp/B000BAVZLW

Great! I see they had Amanda pose for the cover. I especially like that the producers chose these two appropriate titles:

8. Kenny Loggins - Footloose
9. Tiffany - I Think We’re Alone Now

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Raf's diary

Well what would do Mary, if your roommate had be brutally murdered in your own home? I'd be freaking out, wondering if maybe he (or them) were actually after me. I'd be on the first plane home.

Alt+F4,

According to Raffaele's diary, Amanda thought that if she had been home that night, she would be dead also. I have previously documented the fact that she was scared. I believe that she told her mother and or her former boyfriend (DJ?) at one point that she wanted to stay and to help ILE solve the crime.

 

[Alt+F4]

It definitely looked like she was freaking out when she wrote that e-mail.

In which part is she freaking out? In the email she states that she was "panicing" while banging on Meredith's door, but after the body was discovered here's what she talks about:

- How glad she was that she had her wallet and passport when they police told everyone to leave.
- How her stomach got upset from eating vending machine food at the police station.
- How the next day Rafaelle took her out for some "well deserved" pizza.

No freaking out about Meredith or a killer on the loose, just concern about money and a place to live.

First things first though, my roommates both
work for lawyers, and they are going to try to send a request through
on monday to retrieve important documents of ours that are still in
the house. Secondly, we are going to talk to the agency that we used
to find our house and obviously request to move out. It kind of sucks
that we have to pay the next months rent, but the owner has protection
within the contract.

The next part I've always found strange:

I still need to figure out who i need to talk to
and what i need to do to continue studying in perugia, because its
what i want to do.

If she had no involvement in this case except being in the house when the body was discovered why would she be worried about not being about to continuing to study in Perugia? RS seemed to have no problem with her staying with him.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>

If she had no involvement in this case except being in the house when the body was discovered why would she be worried about not being about to continuing to study in Perugia? RS seemed to have no problem with her staying with him.

Why would she kill her roommate if she wanted to stay in Perugia?

 

[Mary_H]

treehorn,

1. PCR can be thought of as a surface chemistry phenomenon; I can see why a materials scientist would be interested for its own sake. Beyond that, Dr. Waterbury's posts are checked by an anonymous forensic geneticist. I have a Ph.D. in biochemistry and I have not found any errors in what he wrote.

3. Guede received a sentence reduction in addition for mitigation (I am not sure if that is the correct term) in addition for taking the fast-track option. That reduction was not appealed by the prosecution.

Didn't Rudy receive "points" for "apologizing?"

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Article 5

Isn't Italy a signatory to the EU Human Rights Act which has been implemented in Britain? And doesn't Italy routinely allow dangerous criminals to remain at home whilst on trial?

Article 5 - liberty and security

Article 5 provides that everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. Liberty and security of the person are taken as a "compound" concept - security of the person has not been subject to separate interpretation by the Court.

Article 5 provides the right to liberty, subject only to lawful arrest or detention under certain other circumstances, such as arrest on suspicion of a crime or imprisonment in fulfilment of a sentence. The article also provides the right to be informed in a language one understands of the reasons for the arrest and any charge against them, the right of prompt access to judicial proceedings to determine the legality of one's arrest or detention and to trial within a reasonable time or release pending trial, and the right to compensation in the case of arrest or detention in violation of this article.

Withnail1969,

Mr. Sayagh mentions article 5 on page 28 of his manuscript. Despite treehorn's comments, a good chunk of Mr. Sayagh's arguments revolve around international law, at which George Washington University excels.

 

[Alt+F4]

Why would she kill her roommate if she wanted to stay in Perugia?

I personally don't think she killed her roommate but was present at the scene.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Raffaele would graduate soon

No freaking out about Meredith or a killer on the loose, just concern about money and a place to live.

The next part I've always found strange:

If she had no involvement in this case except being in the house when the body was discovered why would she be worried about not being about to continuing to study in Perugia? RS seemed to have no problem with her staying with him.

Alt+F4,

Raf was set to graduate in a couple of weeks, IIRC.

 

[quadraginta]

Isn't Italy a signatory to the EU Human Rights Act which has been implemented in Britain? And doesn't Italy routinely allow dangerous criminals to remain at home whilst on trial?

Article 5 - liberty and security

Article 5 provides that everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. Liberty and security of the person are taken as a "compound" concept - security of the person has not been subject to separate interpretation by the Court.

Article 5 provides the right to liberty, subject only to lawful arrest or detention under certain other circumstances, such as arrest on suspicion of a crime or imprisonment in fulfilment of a sentence. The article also provides the right to be informed in a language one understands of the reasons for the arrest and any charge against them, the right of prompt access to judicial proceedings to determine the legality of one's arrest or detention and to trial within a reasonable time or release pending trial, and the right to compensation in the case of arrest or detention in violation of this article.

Since it appears that the EU has not elected to pursue any action related to this egregious violation of Knox and Sollecito's Human Rights under their charter it can only be concluded that they are also party to the conspiracy which has unjustly imprisoned these innocents.

The corruption is obviously not limited to Italy alone. All of Europe is clearly a judicial wasteland.

 

[Kaosium]

In which part is she freaking out? In the email she states that she was "panicing" while banging on Meredith's door, but after the body was discovered here's what she talks about:

- How glad she was that she had her wallet and passport when they police told everyone to leave.
- How her stomach got upset from eating vending machine food at the police station.
- How the next day Rafaelle took her out for some "well deserved" pizza.

No freaking out about Meredith or a killer on the loose, just concern about money and a place to live.

She looked to me like she was babbling non-stop. I can't help but think she might have been drinking too, though that's just a guess. I was talking about the tenor of her e-mail, not that she tried to frighten her parents with her fears.

The next part I've always found strange:



If she had no involvement in this case except being in the house when the body was discovered why would she be worried about not being about to continuing to study in Perugia? RS seemed to have no problem with her staying with him.

I imagine she was trying to reassure her parents that she wanted to stay, despite the murder. As for Raffaele offering her a place, that was nice of him, but I can understand her not wanting to move in with a boy she met less than a week ago. Some girls can be funny that way, I think it has to do with first negotiating the 'proper' position of the toilet seat at rest.

 

[Withnail1969]

Since it appears that the EU has not elected to pursue any action related to this egregious violation of Knox and Sollecito's Human Rights under their charter it can only be concluded that they are also party to the conspiracy which has unjustly imprisoned these innocents.

The corruption is obviously not limited to Italy alone. All of Europe is clearly a judicial wasteland.

I can only assume Italy's justice system is clogged up with all the paperwork involved in releasing Mafia killers within 3 years, not to mention the exponential proliferation of 'calunnia' trials. That might explain the prima facie violations of Article 5 in this case.

 

[Alt+F4]

Mr. Sayagh mentions article 5 on page 28 of his manuscript. Despite treehorn's comments, a good chunk of Mr. Sayagh's arguments revolve around international law, at which George Washington University excels.

Upon reading it again I had to laugh when Mr. Sayagh suggested that Amanda could have been placed under house arrest rather than precautionary detention while totally ignoring the fact that she no longer had a "house" at that point.

How is this guy not on the Supreme Court?

 

[Alt+F4]

Alt+F4,

Raf was set to graduate in a couple of weeks, IIRC.

What does his graduation have to do with her studying in Perugia?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

wasn't raf moving?

What does his graduation have to do with her studying in Perugia?

You mentioned that she seemed happy to stay with him, but he was planning to move back south, IIRC. So she would need a place to live in order to continue studying.

 

[moodstream]

I don't prove things here, I merely explain why I think in a certain way. Their lying has been proven on multiple issues in the process as a matter of facts, and their lies also appear to me to be proven. I think there is nothing wrong in asserting conclusions.

So, you use the word ‘proven’ as shorthand to expresses the phrase ‘appear(s) to me to be proven’. Is that correct?

Are you suggesting that two diametrically opposed statements can be equally true, based on their appearance as truth to multiple observers.

Knox/Sollecito are both guilty and innocent? (Is there even a third quantum theory like indeterminate state also?)

Very interesting.