Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Machiavelli]

I recall reading about that when it was posted. I also noted the date was before 2006 which was when the concept of 'guilty beyond a reasonable doubt' was formalized.

(..)

The concept of guilt beyond reasonble doubt had been part of Italian jurisprudence long before it was explicited also into the Procedure Code.

 

[Machiavelli]

This was exactly the silly argument I predicted: "Yes they were provably at home throughout the time in which Meredith was murdered... but they lied about the details of what they were doing at home!". Except that you have not yet proven that they lied, merely asserted it again.

(...)

I don't prove things here, I merely explain why I think in a certain way. Their lying has been proven on multiple issues in the process as a matter of facts, and their lies also appear to me to be proven. I think there is nothing wrong in asserting conclusions.

 

[Withnail1969]

yes I agree...thanks Dan O. That's interesting about how this software works.

Do you know what time on Nov 1, the downloading started and ended of Stardust?
Could it be downloading while they watched the Amelie movie? Or eating dinner?

I'm just curious.

Is it normal to download movies, while watching movies? I never have done this and is why I'm confused.

It seems that would be taxing on the CPU. How long would it take on Sollecitos Mac to download Stardust, and does it require human interaction, after its downloaded, to press "complete" or "end" etc..? Would there be information, from the source of the Stardust files site or computer, for example, that would offer information?

Its common to hear or read that we musty physically destroy a harddrive to remove all certainty of privacy and information, and that "experts" can retrieve data off the harddrive with almost "magical means". Is this old folklore and untrue? When actually this case seems to state its very easy to erase access time stamps; one only has to overwrite it like they did on Nov 6.

Downloading a movie while watching another movie is entirely normal - it doesn't tax the CPU at all really. When you finish watching the first film, then next one is ready.

 

[RoseMontague]

C'm on, be realistic, five-minutes sleep sessions?
Five-minutes sex sessions? Five minutes bathroom breakes? Five minutes dinner sesions?
A contiuous interruption of acivities every five-10 minutes over 12 hours!
How can you not realize this is not human?

One naps one plays, no bounce no play.

 

[Machiavelli]

I find the idea funny that their alibi could be broken if it turned out there was proof they were where they said they were, but along with the smoking and the sex it appears one of them was on the computer too often. How will it be proven that with a hottie like Amanda that Raffaele definitely could have lasted longer than five minutes?

The last defence theory seems to implicate he left Amanda alone every 5-10 minutes to go to the computer.
The innocentisti seem to not grasp the difference between two alibies and this log theory.

I also wonder if presenting the idea that someone would go to all the trouble of faking a computer log so they could clean up a murder site or keep it secret for a few hours might produce gales of laughter in a courtroom.

I don't present such idea, and you know it. Instead this rather is what several innocentisti accuse the police of doing.

 

[Machiavelli]

One naps one plays, no bounce no play.

Do you believe that?
They always sleep alone? One always awake in shifts?
And then in the morning they don't remember anything about the night?
Please Rose!

 

[treehorn]

1. Kyle-also a virgin
2. James-checks regulary and always used a condom
3. Ross-a 1 night stand, pull out
4. DJ-condoms, Mom is a nurse, he would know
5. Elis-pull out-1 night stand
6. Daniele [sic]-condoms, 1 night stand
7. Raffaele-condoms, 1 time w/o

(Page 28 Angel Face)


"although she did manage to bed a Greek, Albanian, and an Italian other than Raffaele during her first few weeks in Perugia." (Pg 31 AF)

"Two nights after Amanda and Raf got involved, she also hooked up once more with Daniel de Luna." ( Pg 34 AF)


Amanda gives out her deeply personal list and with in 3 pages Barbie Nadeau adds a Greek and Albanian.

Another 3 pages and she turns Amanda's one night stand with Daniel de Luna into a second time, but also stepping out on Raffaele now.

Also of note - No Federico of Train Fame on Amanda's list.


It looks like Barbie Nadeau has really taken some liberites in stating Amanda's bedding of men. Perhaps to make Angel Face more salacious ?

She wrote Amanda's HIV list on pg 28. How is it with in 6 pages she's forgotten what Amanda wrote? She could check her facts by turning a few of her own pages back.


RWVBWL, there is great opportunity to learn from Barbie indeed.

Here's ONE way to resolve the "paradox":

Knox's list wasn't as "deeply personal" as you want to believe.

It's clear that she intentionally "edited"/ "re-titled" her list thereby raising questions about its accuracy/ completeness.

Nadeau would not, for very good legal reasons, 'put pen to paper' as noted above without being able to back up her assertions.

It seems rather clear that Nadeau's account is based on evidence adduced in court.

Is it safe to say that you are not fluent in Italian, were not in the courtroom each day of the trial, and have not read transcripts of trial testimony or translations of the relevant affidavits?

If it is, on what basis are you contradicting Nadeau in favor of a pro-Knox interpretation of an ambiguous entry in a self-serving "prison diary"?

 

[RoseMontague]

The sex party is easy, the both sleeping in the same bed at the same time is harder (my opinion). Some snore, some toss and turn, some kick. It takes longer (in my experience, and that would be limited experience in my case-LOL) to get a good nights sleep with a partner. Your opinion on this is welcome.

 

[katy_did]

One naps one plays, no bounce no play.

A Macbook Pro is a laptop, right? They probably had it on the bed. If he had an external mouse, they would have been able to bounce, play, and knock off the screensaver, all at the same time.

 

[Machiavelli]

(..)

Whenever we ask for specifics about these lies, in the past, they have always turned out to be inconsequential or the result of distortions of the facts by police or guilters.

If past experience is any guide to future phenomena, this will not change.

(...)

"inconsequential" ?
"distorsions of the facts" ?

I don't attempt follow your brain, since you were not even able to see the hand-pricking lie by Sollecito about the knife. But really you can't see any of the lies with which the defendants statements are riddled?

 

[RoseMontague]

A Macbook Pro is a laptop, right? They probably had it on the bed. If he had an external mouse, they would have been able to bounce, play, and knock off the screensaver, all at the same time.

A good Dreamcatcher would probably help them sleep. Otherwise it's SSDD.

 

[treehorn]

... It would have been nice had ILE given the defense sufficient prior notice of the testing, but ILE can redeem itself by turning over all of the relevant information now. Better three year’s late than not at all.

On what basis are you claiming ILE did not give "sufficient" notice to the defense?

You're aware that missing DNA tests only to complain about them, during the trial, in front of 12 'unwashed' lay people, is a standard tactic by defense lawyers, are you not?

 

[Machiavelli]

The sex party is easy, the both sleeping in the same bed at the same time is harder (my opinion). Some snore, some toss and turn, some kick. It takes longer (in my experience, and that would be limited experience in my case-LOL) to get a good nights sleep with a partner. Your opinion on this is welcome.

I just wonder why you are so available to buy any kind of unlikely scenario and accept any inconsistence as long as it is in favour of innocence. This is a screensaver obviously set on 5 minutes, there is a 12 hour period of uninterrupted "acivity", and there is two testimonies of people who claim they were sleeping and s tired the time to the point they can't remember a single fact.
You are available to put together these three data, you try to fit them together as if it were natural to do so. That's not rational, not objective.

 

[RoseMontague]

On what basis are you claiming ILE did not give "sufficient" notice to the defense?

You're aware that missing DNA tests only to complain about them, during the trial, in front of 12 'unwashed' lay people, is a standard tactic by defense lawyers, are you not?

I believe he is referring to this quote from comments at the SHOCK:

The police called to say that the testing was starting. This testing took place in Rome.
Carlo was in court on another case and Luciano was in Perugia, 2.5 hours away, and also in court on a different case.
We asked that it be postponed until we could get there later that day.

They said no, it could not be postponed to later that same day.

Then they appointed someone else, that is in no way related to the case, to be our stand in. This person "had no objections" to the tests and that was the end of it.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2...howComment=1267341034861#c1717371621243822737

 

[RoseMontague]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
The sex party is easy, the both sleeping in the same bed at the same time is harder (my opinion). Some snore, some toss and turn, some kick. It takes longer (in my experience, and that would be limited experience in my case-LOL) to get a good nights sleep with a partner. Your opinion on this is welcome.

I just wonder why you are so available to buy any kind of unlikely scenario and accept any inconsistence as long as it is in favour of innocence. This is a screensaver obviously set on 5 minutes, there is a 12 hour period of uninterrupted "acivity", and there is two testimonies of people who claim they were sleeping and s tired the time to the point they can't remember a single fact.
You are available to put together these three data, you try to fit them together as if it were natural to do so. That's not rational, not objective.

I don't believe you are addressing the argument that I made. Amanda looks like a snorer. I bet Raffaele kicks. katy_did made a good point as well. The type of settings for the screensaver might help, any movement or mouse, etc.

 

[treehorn]

This quality of journalism may help to explain why Newsweek went bust last year, and was sold for $1 (plus debts) to an audio industry tycoon (Sidney Harman) in August of this year. I see that there are plans to merge it with The Daily Beast...............

It's important not to forget that, in the current climate, even the more respectable print media need to carry provocative and eye-catching features in order to attract and retain a readership. The marketplace is now incredibly crowded and disambiguated, particularly with the proliferation of online journalism. This is bound to colour the style of journalism across the board - encouraging sensationalism to the detriment of sober factual reportage. And - in this particular case - this applies just as much (if not more) to the "Knox is Innocent" pieces as it does to the "Knox is guilty" pieces.

John, I'm on the verge of weeping when I behold the current state of the 4th Estate.

Where oh where has the 'watchdog' gone?

That said, Nadeau's career with Newsweek stretches back over some 14 years or so - to a time when the game changing effects of the internet were just beginning to take hold. I think her record speaks for itself. Malign it if you wish, but I cannot reasonably join you in that exercise.

 

[Justinian2]

Justinian2, I must say I wish that you wouldn't keep giving the snipers easy targets. It fills the thread with inane gotchas and crowds out discussion of pertinent points that actually matter.

It isn't an easy challenge. Here is the rest of it:

If you don't like that table, then search the entire internet. Find a table of social characteristics. Compare that table to both Amanda and Massei (or the police or the news). Tell me the results.​

Anywhere on the internet! Find a table or list that describes a 'normal' or 'social' personality and compare that characteristics to both Amanda and Massei (or the police or the news). Tell me the results.

You are seriously making an argument based on a table on a psychic website? Seriously?

Lionking failed the challenge to "Find a table or list that describes a 'normal' or 'social' personality and compare that characteristics to both Amanda and Massei (or the police or the news). Tell me the results."

One point is that DSM III R (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) is filled with 'personality disorders' yet fails to mention what a normal or social person is.

Amanda is a perfectly normal young, healthy attractive woman - if you don't first assume she is not a murderer. To assume that she is a murderer is circular reasoning if you are using the definition of a PD to predict if she could be a murderer.

 

[odeed]

I wonder why no one has mentioned "hot corners"?

...

Because Occam razor no longer applies to this thread?

If it ever did.

 

[RoseMontague]

It isn't an easy challenge. Here is the rest of it:

If you don't like that table, then search the entire internet. Find a table of social characteristics. Compare that table to both Amanda and Massei (or the police or the news). Tell me the results.​

Anywhere on the internet! Find a table or list that describes a 'normal' or 'social' personality and compare that characteristics to both Amanda and Massei (or the police or the news). Tell me the results.

You'll notice he failed the challenge.

One point is that DSM III R is filled with 'personality disorders' yet fails to mention what a normal or social person is.

I agree with the concept. Comparing Amanda or anyone else to a list of anti-social behaviors while ignoring evidence of social behaviors is only half the story. Perhaps a better list is available from a more universally respected
source?

 

[Matthew Best]

C'm on, be realistic, five-minutes sleep sessions?
Five-minutes sex sessions? Five minutes bathroom breakes? Five minutes dinner sesions?
A contiuous interruption of acivities every five-10 minutes over 12 hours!
How can you not realize this is not human?

I have to admit I don't speak Italian and am in some doubt about what the report actually says. In addition, there are some people saying that there are missing pages and others saying there aren't.

However, if a screensaver starts up and then is stopped from working after 5 minutes that doesn't mean there was 5 minutes of non-activity on the computer. We are missing the amount of time of non-activity it takes for the screensaver to start up. If the screensaver was set to start after 30 minutes of non-activity, then screensaver activity lasting 5 minutes indicates 35 minutes of non-activity not five minutes.