Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Dan O.]

I read something about that; what organization gave them those medals?

The SAP (Sindacato Autonomo di Polizia (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?u=http://www.sap-nazionale.org/nav_chiSiamo.php)) which is a sort of police union not unlike the Fraternal Order of Police in the US.

 

[Justinian2]

The SAP (Sindacato Autonomo di Polizia (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?u=http://www.sap-nazionale.org/nav_chiSiamo.php)) which is a sort of police union not unlike the Fraternal Order of Police in the US.

I see, said the blind man!

From that site:

We defend those who defend the profession to profession
Gli obiettivi di ordine sindacale sono: The union policy objectives are:
•Le migliori condizioni di vita e di lavoro dei poliziotti. The best conditions of life and work of the police. •La tutela delle loro condizioni morali, professionali, giuridiche ed economiche. The protection of their moral, professional, legal and economic. •La rivalutazione dell'immagine e della funzione della Polizia di Stato. The revaluation of the image and function of the State Police.​

Yes, they could and perhaps would protect the image of the Perugia police, wouldn't they?

 

[quadraginta]

I personally use a Razer gamer's mouse with a laptop, which is about the fastest most precise mouse you can buy. I can't abide trackpads for sustained work. Of course, you can't use a mouse if your laptop is on your bed, and if you're just watching films, the trackpad is fine.

As for trackballs - pretty much for older people who maybe already have problems with their wrists, in my opinion. I don't think you would see someone like Rafaelle (also a gamer, I believe) using one.

What a puzzling thing to say. Where do you get these ideas. Trackballs have been in use for gamers since the very first video games. As far as their popularity, there is not a shortage of gamers who find a trackball superior in many ways to a mouse.

Their ergonomic superiorty is not scientifically established, but there are certainly differences. However I've been using one by preference for twenty years, and it didn't have anything to do with my wrists. For one thing, they can be used pretty much anywhere, without a need for a dedicated space. A cluttered desk is no issue. This makes them especially suitable for the kind of situations laptops can be placed in (even a bed ), although I was using them long before I was using laptops.. For another, I've found that they are much more precise when one is accustomed to them, and with the right understanding and use of hysteresis settings in the pointer software they can also respond much more quickly.

The biggest impediment to their general acceptance has been that most people learn to use a mouse first, and thus find a trackball initially awkward by comparison. They tend not to pursue usage until they become adept.

Both of my boys were using trackballs as soon as they were old enough to sit at a computer. When they went to school and encountered mice they felt that they were quite clumsy and inadequate, even after they had been using them for years.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>
I have no doubt that knox had, for the most part, been a model citizen leading up to 2007.

But that's not the point.

The point is that there is evidence supporting the notion that her 'good character' began to degrade in 2007, at about the age antisocial PD typically begins to rear its ugly head in those so afflicted.

Are you sure you're not thinking of schizophrenia? Most definitions of antisocial PD say it begins in childhood, and cannot be diagnosed unless there is evidence of conduct disorder before age 15.

Hence the brush with Seattle police,

For which you still have not provided a citation supporting anything other than what the police report says.

the sudden promiscuity in Italy,

Two partners in six weeks is not promiscuity for a college student.

the abuse of illicit narcotics and alcohol in both countries,

Correction: The use of marijuana and alcohol.

the racist/ exceedingly insensitive taunting of a Jewish coworker,

Hearsay.

problems with Meredith,

Unsubstantiated.

the prank/hazing/murder,

Begging the question.

the behavior at the police HQ

Hearsay.

and in the Courtroom, etc.,

???

all in 2007. Age 19-20. Early adulthood. Bang.

And don't forget: Sociopaths are manipulative. They are, as I've pointed out, often described by medical professionals as "superficially charming."

This might account for any number of the 'positive' stories about knox.

How do YOU account for the fact that so many of her 'negative' behaviors in the year 2007, at age 19/20, comport with the signs and symptoms of antisocial PD?

So far you haven't established with certainty that she had any negative behaviors.

Do you write it all off to "immaturity" or "eccentricity"? Why?

Amanda Knox has no symptoms of antisocial personality disorder. Even if she did, you are not qualified to provide that diagnosis.

 

[christianahannah]

I agree. That article cannot be relied on.

The reason I posted that article is because it does give Raffaele's statements in quotes.

I do not know if those statements quoted were written down by the police and signed by Raffaele and Corriere della Sera had access to that written document or were just quotes from the police of what Raffaele said (and repeated to CDS). I don't know if there even is a signed statement by Raffaele.

Amanda's statements which were quoted in the same article were from her 5:45 a.m. signed statement.

I don't know if it was ever decided whether it was legal for this information to be made public in the media.

 

[Justinian2]

Are you sure you're not thinking of schizophrenia? Most definitions of antisocial PD say it begins in childhood, and cannot be diagnosed unless there is evidence of conduct disorder before age 15.

<snip>

Amanda Knox has no symptoms of antisocial personality disorder. Even if she did, you are not qualified to provide that diagnosis.

Great reply.

None of us, I mean NOBODY would look good if they looked at our whole lives and made mountains out of molehills out of the parts of our lives thought dubious by some goodie-goodie somewhere.

I was voted 'Good citizen of the Year' by my senior class in high school. I declined the dubious honor. Yea, I probably was 'good citizen of the year' by virtue of the fact I was a nerd and a geek.

I became more like Amanda during college. I drank a little, flirted a little, and even occasionally had a few too many. Now I'm a nerd again. Oh well, can't be perfect all the time.

 

[Withnail1969]

..

 

[Withnail1969]

What a puzzling thing to say. Where do you get these ideas. Trackballs have been in use for gamers since the very first video games. As far as their popularity, there is not a shortage of gamers who find a trackball superior in many ways to a mouse.

Their ergonomic superiorty is not scientifically established, but there are certainly differences. However I've been using one by preference for twenty years, and it didn't have anything to do with my wrists. For one thing, they can be used pretty much anywhere, without a need for a dedicated space. A cluttered desk is no issue. This makes them especially suitable for the kind of situations laptops can be placed in (even a bed ), although I was using them long before I was using laptops.. For another, I've found that they are much more precise when one is accustomed to them, and with the right understanding and use of hysteresis settings in the pointer software they can also respond much more quickly.

The biggest impediment to their general acceptance has been that most people learn to use a mouse first, and thus find a trackball initially awkward by comparison. They tend not to pursue usage until they become adept.

Both of my boys were using trackballs as soon as they were old enough to sit at a computer. When they went to school and encountered mice they felt that they were quite clumsy and inadequate, even after they had been using them for years.

I understand your points about the benefits of trackballs, but real gamers don't use them. The reason for this is that they would lose against comparable player playing with a mouse such as I mentioned I own.

The well-known Quake player Fatal1ty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal1ty, who has won over $500,000 in tournaments, does not use a trackball. Nor does any other pro.

 

[Mary_H]

The reason I posted that article is because it does give Raffaele's statements in quotes.

I do not know if those statements quoted were written down by the police and signed by Raffaele and Corriere della Sera had access to that written document or were just quotes from the police of what Raffaele said (and repeated to CDS). I don't know if there even is a signed statement by Raffaele.

Amanda's statements which were quoted in the same article were from her 5:45 a.m. signed statement.

I don't know if it was ever decided whether it was legal for this information to be made public in the media.

So much of Amanda's statement turned out not to be true, it is probably safe to say the same about Raffaele's statement.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Originally Posted by Fine
Raffaele says explicitly in his Diary that Amanda asked him to lie. There is no escaping that fact,




________________

Charlie, under the circumstances that the Diary was written, you've made a distinction without any difference.

Raffaele ---at one point in time, after his interrogation and arrest---told the cops (and the Judge) that Amanda had asked him to lie. We can both agree on that.

No, we don't agree. Raffaele apparently told the cops on the night of the 5th that Amanda went out and asked him to lie about it. But, on the 7th, he told Matteini that his pre-interrogation account was correct - he and Amanda stayed in. How could he reconcile an account in which they stayed in together - or even an account in which he can't remember if she went out - with the claim that she asked him to lie for her and say that she did not go out?

 

[Justinian2]

No need to tape them. As long as the police say someone has confessed, that's enough. There's no reason for the police to lie.

I agree. They don't need a reason.

OMG, I'm on your ignore list so you can't see this!

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

There would have to be transcripts I assume, tapes likely not. Raffaele's defence should have the transcripts, Charlie or anyone, have you obtained Raffaele's defense documents as you have Amanda's????

The police claim they have no transcript or tape of either Raffaele or Amanda's interrogation on the night of the 5th/6th. According to Mignini, this is the fault of Amanda, because she threw the place into such an uproar with her accusation of Lumumba, that the police didn't think to make the recordings that accompanied all the other statements they took in connection with this case.

http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/p/italia/2009/12/12/AMRnVHCD-preston_parla_risponde.shtml

 

[Chris_Halkides]

amateurs and professionals

1)

3) As a rule, pros have little or nothing to learn from amateurs.

Treehorn,

A couple of us have documented Mr. Sayagh's credentials here, including the fact that he is a candidate for the bar. Calling him an amateur is inaccurate, at the least.

Are you claiming that you are a pro? If so, would you mind providing your qualifications?

 

[christianahannah]

So much of Amanda's statement turned out not to be true, it is probably safe to say the same about Raffaele's statement.

I agree.

I would still be interested in seeing all their statements, though.

 

[Mary_H]

I agree.

I would still be interested in seeing all their statements, though.

Wouldn't we all. Especially the original authentic ones.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Daniel was not even in Perugia at that time

What is your source for this "witness statement"?

Are you referring to and affidavit or testimony in court?

Treehorn,

An anonymous source who read it told me that Daniel’s witness statement (he was not called to testify) states that he was not in Perugia after he night he and Amanda slept together. That statement is also in Amanda gli Altri, the book that was published on the case (and the author is no friend of Amanda).

 

[Justinian2]

1) ...
2) ...
3) As a rule, pros have little or nothing to learn from amateurs.

4)

My daughter is a medical doctor. I helped her throughout college in math, physics and the sciences. Even got her extra credit on her physics exam when I showed her how to prove that there was more than one correct answer for a test question that she got 'wrong' (her answer wasn't wrong, just ignored).

We learn from life, being parents, and continual reading. A young 'expert' is frequently pretty shallow.

I get along great with doctors, teachers and half the lawyers. It's the police officers I have the most difficulty with. Of course, one of them is still in jail...

I believe that you can learn your greatest lessons from the non-experts sometimes. However, you sould not try to teach the experts in their field; it's smarter to listen.

 

[el buscador]

Fuji said: "The attack on Kimberly and Jamie Cates was far more brutal than that visited upon Meredith Kercher. Two assailants hacked and butchered the victims using a knife and a machete. And yet, there was no physical evidence linking the machete-wielder to the scene (Christopher Gribble, the knife-wielder, goes on trial next February - it remains to be seen what physical evidence, if any, the state will introduce at that time).

Mind you, in the Kercher case, there is at least some disputed or questionable physical evidence tying Knox and Sollecito to the crime. In regards to Spader, by contrast, it needs to be repeated: we have "the complete lack of physical evidence linking the defendant to the crime scene". As such, it is evident to me that Steve Moore and those utilizing similar reasoning are in fact employing the "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" fallacy quite liberally."

Fuji, you haven't told us enough to make any such comparisons between the two murders. I've read little about this crime but do know that it was premeditated and the young men set out to burglarize and murder the occupants of a chosen house. As far as not leaving any physical evidence I have wondered what the guys were wearing. Since the crime was planned were they prepared and wearing things like watch caps, hoodies, gloves and other clothing to protect themselves from leaving DNA, blood traces or finger prints? Also, did they try to rape either the mother or daughter? If they didn't try to sexually assault the two victims then there would be no reason to take off any clothing they were wearing.

 

[Withnail1969]

Fuji said: "The attack on Kimberly and Jamie Cates was far more brutal than that visited upon Meredith Kercher. Two assailants hacked and butchered the victims using a knife and a machete. And yet, there was no physical evidence linking the machete-wielder to the scene (Christopher Gribble, the knife-wielder, goes on trial next February - it remains to be seen what physical evidence, if any, the state will introduce at that time).

There should be no further discussion of the Spader case on this forum as it veers too far off-topic.

 

[Malkmus]

Perhaps if you had chosen your phrasing more carefully, your intent would have been more clear. I responded to this specific sentence of yours in making my personal assessment of you:

"Stilicho and Fuji over on PMF seem to think that the similarities to this case are enlightening, but I can't exactly see what point they are trying to make other than that the suspect wrote incriminating things while incarcerated that bear similarites to what Raf wrote."


I can see no obvious connection between this and the quote of Stilicho which you now claim to be the source of your befuddlement:

"Have you shown this stuff to LooneyJohn and Chris Halkides? I am sure they'd write it off as yet another hum-drum "internalised false confession". Are they fighting to get Spader freed yet?"


As such, I stand behind my original assessment of you, bolstered as such by your new claim that only now you "can see that Stilicho was just being sarcastic".

Um, yes, exactly, Fuji. I couldn't understand what the point was you were trying to make other than that there was some apparent similarity between what Spader and Sollecito wrote. Apparently, the point was just that those writings can damage their case. However, Raf's diary was not entered as evidence in court, but it's undeniable that Spader's will be. Still, IMO, strange that you decided to compare the two.

I elaborated upon my "befuddlement" before you came on here when I wrote:

This seemed like a stretch when I first tried to understand the comparison, and it still does. I thought this was going to tell us something about internalized false confessions...