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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Yes, I had anticipated this answer. You are saying the computer logs prove he was up all night on his laptop and the retrieval of the phone text coinciding with the last screensaver log, more or less, solidifies it.

This does beg the question of why this was never part of his alibi before.

I wonder how many times he might have told that to the police during the hours upon hours he was interrogated with his girlfriend in the next room. I wonder how many times he was told they had 'proof' he was doing something else, or that his computer records didn't match his story.

I'd love to know what happened with Raffaele in his interrogation, do you suppose the tapes or transcripts will ever be revealed?
 
Yes, I had anticipated this answer. You are saying the computer logs prove he was up all night on his laptop and the retrieval of the phone text coinciding with the last screensaver log, more or less, solidifies it.


If you had anticipated this answer, why were you unable to state it?


This does beg the question of why this was never part of his alibi before. There's a huge difference in surfing, watching a movie, then sleeping from 1am to up all night on the computer.


How solid is that claim of sleeping from 1am? It is obvious that neither Amanda or Raffaele were watching the clock that night. I don't even have that 1am time listed in my detailed timeline so if you could dig up the reference i'd appreciate it.


However, I am very interested in how the defence will play this in court. It might work.


Somehow the postal police are going to destroy the copies of Raffaele's hard drive that the prosecution has and the original will have mysteriously disappeared. Mignini will claim that the defense manufactured the evidence and without proof to the contrary, the court will agree and dismiss it.:eek:



*or perhaps he had a waterbed! remember those :)


I'm posting this from my waterbed. Laptops were ok for browsing in bed but with the iPod there is no longer a reason to get up.;)
 
I wonder how many times he might have told that to the police during the hours upon hours he was interrogated with his girlfriend in the next room. I wonder how many times he was told they had 'proof' he was doing something else, or that his computer records didn't match his story.

I'd love to know what happened with Raffaele in his interrogation, do you suppose the tapes or transcripts will ever be revealed?


There's no need for interrogations to be taped in Italy because it's impossible for the police to lie or do anything wrong. Recording them would just be a waste of 1 eurocent's worth of electricity.
 
There's no need for interrogations to be taped in Italy because it's impossible for the police to lie or do anything wrong. Recording them would just be a waste of 1 eurocent's worth of electricity.

I wonder how many taped confessions convict people in Italy? Confessions start as interrogations and if you don't tape the interrogation you won't have the confession...
 
The night shift was busy.
The sun never sets on this thread!

Vorby: Movie Quote by Capt. Willard in Apocalypse Now
Sir, I am unaware of any such activity or operation - nor would I be disposed to discuss such an operation if it did in fact exist, sir.

A cute answer to a question that asked if someone was on the Massei payroll.
 
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links for treehorn

I'm going blind looking these posts up.

Can you be more specific?

A link perhaps?

textbook on anatomy and physiology
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6518926&postcount=13594

list of earlier comment numbers
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6518601&highlight=treehorn#post6518601

misinformation versus disinformation
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6519951&postcount=13629
 
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I wonder how many taped confessions convict people in Italy? Confessions start as interrogations and if you don't tape the interrogation you won't have the confession...

No need to tape them. As long as the police say someone has confessed, that's enough. There's no reason for the police to lie.
 
I wonder how many times he might have told that to the police during the hours upon hours he was interrogated with his girlfriend in the next room. I wonder how many times he was told they had 'proof' he was doing something else, or that his computer records didn't match his story.

I'd love to know what happened with Raffaele in his interrogation, do you suppose the tapes or transcripts will ever be revealed?

There would have to be transcripts I assume, tapes likely not. Raffaele's defence should have the transcripts, Charlie or anyone, have you obtained Raffaele's defense documents as you have Amanda's????

If you had anticipated this answer, why were you unable to state it?

How solid is that claim of sleeping from 1am? It is obvious that neither Amanda or Raffaele were watching the clock that night. I don't even have that 1am time listed in my detailed timeline so if you could dig up the reference i'd appreciate it.

Somehow the postal police are going to destroy the copies of Raffaele's hard drive that the prosecution has and the original will have mysteriously disappeared. Mignini will claim that the defense manufactured the evidence and without proof to the contrary, the court will agree and dismiss it.:eek:

I'm posting this from my waterbed. Laptops were ok for browsing in bed but with the iPod there is no longer a reason to get up.;)

I thought of it but assumed it would compete with the previous alibis, which it does.

The 1am has been said before, if I find it I'll post it.

I assume the defense can prove a chain of custody for their own copy so your premonition cannot pan out as described.

A waterbed, I'm jealous! :p
 
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I'm pretty sure the laptop in question has a trackpad so it won't be affected by movement unless they were on top of it. The fact that the screen saver was kicking in for up to 6 minutes through the night indicates that he wasn't exactly staying awake but was periodically dozing off then waking up the computer and starting the next segment of the movie.

There was mention of creating a playlist the next morning. Can we find out what was on this playlist? If he had been playing videos that had been downloaded then there should have been a last access date for each of those files. But if he put those files into a playlist and later played the list, it would have overwritten the access times. If my suspicion is correct, the playtimes of the segments will interleave with the sleep times seen in the log files.


The laptop I'm using to type this has a built-in trackpad, as well as a pointing stick, and an external Logitech Trackman trackball which is connected at nearly all times since I find the other two pointing devices less convenient. The Trackman is sensitive enough that otherwise imperceptible vibrations can cause it to register motion (not to mention cats, :p). I've had five laptops and a tablet over the past eight years, and except for when I was using the tablet out in the field I nearly always have an alternative pointing device attached to them, usually a Trackman. I own several, and generally keep one at work, one at home, and one in the bag I carry my laptop around in.

I don't think that we can be confident that Sollecito depended on the trackpad alone. Many laptop users I know do not when they are using their machines in their regular surroundings.

Do we know how Sollecito normally kept his laptop configured when he was using it at home? Do we know how it was configured that night?
 
How solid is that claim of sleeping from 1am? It is obvious that neither Amanda or Raffaele were watching the clock that night. I don't even have that 1am time listed in my detailed timeline so if you could dig up the reference i'd appreciate it.

The claim of 1 a.m. from Raffaele is in part of the leaked interrogation to Corriere della Sera article of November 7, 2007. It may be elsewhere (perhaps the news article on Raffaele before his arrest?).

Raffaele states that he was on his computer until around 1 a.m. when Amanda arrived home. He mentions not remembering what Amanda was wearing and if they made love. He doesn't explicitly state he went to sleep after 1 a.m. but states he awoke around 10 a.m.

In this same article is the leaked interrogation of Amanda.

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml
 
A cute answer to a question that asked if someone was on the Massei payroll.


If bloggers and internet posters were being paid to defend the Italian police, that would be coming from the organization that openly admits their job is to support and defend the police. Remember the metals handed out for such an outstanding job botching the investigation :eye-poppi

Even if someone were being paid to pound the support drums, they wouldn't be the ones we see on the line taking the hits for dishing out fake information. Anyone getting paid for this would be smart enough to stay in the background and turn the crank so they don't blow their credibility and spoil the gravy train for the next case.
 
The claim of 1 a.m. from Raffaele is in part of the leaked interrogation to Corriere della Sera article of November 7, 2007. It may be elsewhere (perhaps the news article on Raffaele before his arrest?).

Raffaele states that he was on his computer until around 1 a.m. when Amanda arrived home. He mentions not remembering what Amanda was wearing and if they made love. He doesn't explicitly state he went to sleep after 1 a.m. but states he awoke around 10 a.m.

In this same article is the leaked interrogation of Amanda.

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml


Have we ever determined if leaking contents of police interrogations is a criminal act in Italy?

There have been a number of inconsistencies in that statement already discussed here. Two that come immediately to mind are the location of Amanda when she sends the text to Patrick at 20:35 (cell Via Berardi area 7 according to Massei pg 345). And then there is Jovana Popovic who met Amanda at Raffaele's place around 20:40.

It's clear that this statement is not Raffaele's recolection of events but a story that was constructed through the interrogation process that says more about what the police wanted to believe than the facts of what happened.


ETA: how many of the guilters watched the FrontLine episode last night on confessions? Here's the link if you missed it: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/
 
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If bloggers and internet posters were being paid to defend the Italian police, that would be coming from the organization that openly admits their job is to support and defend the police. Remember the metals handed out for such an outstanding job botching the investigation :eye-poppi

I read something about that; what organization gave them those medals?
 
The laptop I'm using to type this has a built-in trackpad, as well as a pointing stick, and an external Logitech Trackman trackball which is connected at nearly all times since I find the other two pointing devices less convenient. The Trackman is sensitive enough that otherwise imperceptible vibrations can cause it to register motion (not to mention cats, :p). I've had five laptops and a tablet over the past eight years, and except for when I was using the tablet out in the field I nearly always have an alternative pointing device attached to them, usually a Trackman. I own several, and generally keep one at work, one at home, and one in the bag I carry my laptop around in.

I don't think that we can be confident that Sollecito depended on the trackpad alone. Many laptop users I know do not when they are using their machines in their regular surroundings.

Do we know how Sollecito normally kept his laptop configured when he was using it at home? Do we know how it was configured that night?

I personally use a Razer gamer's mouse with a laptop, which is about the fastest most precise mouse you can buy. I can't abide trackpads for sustained work. Of course, you can't use a mouse if your laptop is on your bed, and if you're just watching films, the trackpad is fine.

As for trackballs - pretty much for older people who maybe already have problems with their wrists, in my opinion. I don't think you would see someone like Rafaelle (also a gamer, I believe) using one.
 
If bloggers and internet posters were being paid to defend the Italian police, that would be coming from the organization that openly admits their job is to support and defend the police. Remember the metals handed out for such an outstanding job botching the investigation :eye-poppi

Even if someone were being paid to pound the support drums, they wouldn't be the ones we see on the line taking the hits for dishing out fake information. Anyone getting paid for this would be smart enough to stay in the background and turn the crank so they don't blow their credibility and spoil the gravy train for the next case.

My early police brutality sites were frequented by the police. Their computers didn't have spelling checkers and they couldn't spell. Plus, many posts were in CAPS as with the early teletype machines. It was obvious who was posting. They also frequently used terms like 'perp', 'the accused' and other police jargon. Now it isn't. Spelling checkers are everywhere. However, I still suspect that government employees frequent various sites such as this. They have the time when they are 'working'.

Besides, they may be doing their job if they waste our time and break us up by making it too emotionally painful to want to continue posting (ad homs, etc.) Force is their forte. Logic isn't needed and is too difficult.

Yes, I believe there are Fiends of Massei here.
 
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Fuji, when I wrote on here asking for an explanation from you or Stilicho, it was in response to this statement:

Not your four points, which I did get, so you can retract your conclusion that I'm either an imbecile or a liar for not comprehending it. But now that you've come here with your above explanation I can see that Stilicho was just being sarcastic.

Perhaps if you had chosen your phrasing more carefully, your intent would have been more clear. I responded to this specific sentence of yours in making my personal assessment of you:

"Stilicho and Fuji over on PMF seem to think that the similarities to this case are enlightening, but I can't exactly see what point they are trying to make other than that the suspect wrote incriminating things while incarcerated that bear similarites to what Raf wrote."


I can see no obvious connection between this and the quote of Stilicho which you now claim to be the source of your befuddlement:

"Have you shown this stuff to LooneyJohn and Chris Halkides? I am sure they'd write it off as yet another hum-drum "internalised false confession". Are they fighting to get Spader freed yet?"


As such, I stand behind my original assessment of you, bolstered as such by your new claim that only now you "can see that Stilicho was just being sarcastic".
 
You're making the false analogy that because there isn't much physical evidence against Spader that we should treat that case the same way as we do Knox/Sollecito.

Nonsense. I did no such thing. If you think that I did, show me how so.
 
I will grant that the lack of much physical evidence is a similarity, but overall, the two cases are very different. To take a single example, the burglars in the Spader case were thought to be deliberately looking for a family to kill. No one is suggesting anything comparable in this case.


halides1 - Thank you for the thoughtful reply.



As for the comparison between the writings of Spader and LondonJohn & Kevin_Lowe, I agree that it is of no greater significance to a discussion of the Meredith Kercher case. I was not the one who originally made such a comparison; however, by highlighting selected excerpts of each, I had hoped to demonstrate how I could understand Stilicho might have made such an argument in the first place.

As for the comparison between the writings of Spader and Knox & Sollecito, I agree that the respective contents are quite dissimilar, and I said as much earlier.

As for the physical evidence - of course the two cases are very different. Both are somewhat exceptional crimes which tend to stand outside the normal range of criminal activity. However, I wish to emphasize two specific points to you regarding the nature of the physical evidence in both cases:


1) You and others have introduced countless other criminal cases to argue by way of analogy specific aspects of the Kercher case which support the position of Knox's and Sollecito's innocence, most particularly in regard to instances of false confessions. However, even a cursory glance at these other cases reveals great dissimilarities between them and the Kercher case. As such, I think that there is definitely room in this thread for comparisons to be made between the Cates and Kercher cases, especially given recent public statements by those professing certainty of Knox's innocence (see below).


2) Retired FBI agent Steve Moore is a prominent supporter of Knox's innocence, having appeared on radio and television interviews, as well as siginficantly participating in the online discussion of the case, most notably at Bruce Fisher's "Injustice in Perugia" site.

On the "Today" show on 2 September, Moore asserted:

"The crime scene itself precludes Knox’s involvement — and her boyfriend Sollecito’s as well, Moore said.

“In a crime scene like that, when you have so much blood, it’s as if you threw blood all over the floor,” he told Curry. “If Amanda Knox and her boyfriend and that drifter were involved in this, there would be three sets of fingerprints, three sets of footprints, DNA, hair samples. It would have been an absolute zoo of evidence.

“There was, in that room, footprints, fingerprints, DNA, hair samples, saliva samples, everything for one person — a drifter. There is no way they could have been in that room without their physical presence being obvious.” "




The attack on Kimberly and Jamie Cates was far more brutal than that visited upon Meredith Kercher. Two assailants hacked and butchered the victims using a knife and a machete. And yet, there was no physical evidence linking the machete-wielder to the scene (Christopher Gribble, the knife-wielder, goes on trial next February - it remains to be seen what physical evidence, if any, the state will introduce at that time).

Mind you, in the Kercher case, there is at least some disputed or questionable physical evidence tying Knox and Sollecito to the crime. In regards to Spader, by contrast, it needs to be repeated: we have "the complete lack of physical evidence linking the defendant to the crime scene". As such, it is evident to me that Steve Moore and those utilizing similar reasoning are in fact employing the "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" fallacy quite liberally.
 
Have we ever determined if leaking contents of police interrogations is a criminal act in Italy?

There have been a number of inconsistencies in that statement already discussed here. Two that come immediately to mind are the location of Amanda when she sends the text to Patrick at 20:35 (cell Via Berardi area 7 according to Massei pg 345). And then there is Jovana Popovic who met Amanda at Raffaele's place around 20:40.

It's clear that this statement is not Raffaele's recollection of events but a story that was constructed through the interrogation process that says more about what the police wanted to believe than the facts of what happened.


I agree. That article cannot be relied on.
 
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