Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

__________________
For purposes of discussion, let's suppose the lovebirds are innocent of murder, in which case the intent of their scheme would be different than if guilty.

But your position is that they are guilty, isn't it? Let's cut to the chase. Can we see an explanation based on supposition of guilt then?

 

[Justinian2]

Sorry, I don't understand what the claims and counter claims are in the latest posts.

In this tangential argument, the basic claim is that the police should be given more credibility than ordinary witnesses? Is that correct?
In this tangential argument, the basic counter claim is that the police should NOT be given more credibility than ordinary witnesses? Is that correct?
This basic claim in this thread is that AK and RS are guilty of being accomplices to Guede in the murder of MK.

The basic counter claim in this thread is that Amanda is innocent for various reasons.

From the rules of argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentation#Key_components_of_argumentation

Let's at least get the claim right and put it at the top of the post.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Raffaele says explicitly in his Diary that Amanda asked him to lie. There is no escaping that fact,

That's not what he says. He says he told police that Amanda asked him to lie.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

At this stage I think recreating the moon landing would be easier for the guilter community out there than proving Knox and Sollecito are guilty. Pretending the opposite is hard to reconcile with even a tenuous connection to reality on their part.

You are addressing a label rather than an argument, so you can't win. If you think the court has railroaded two innocent people, you are a "conspiracy theorist," in the same bin as moon hoaxers and 9-11 truthers. Then, if you point out some of the countless other cases where innocent suspects really have been railroaded by the criminal justice system, it is "argument by anecdote."

Labels are useful because they make it easy for people to function without thinking. A clerk with an IQ of 85 can stock a whole soup aisle while he's listening to talk radio, get every can right, and know who to vote for in the next election - all without straining his limited intellect.

 

[Justinian2]

[...] The answer to your question, I think, then comes down to Amanda's abnormality, a certain cockiness, conjoined with a touch of narcissism.

Your claim[?] is that AK is guilty because she has a personality abnormality of being cocky with a touch of narcissism.

My counter claim is that being slightly narcissistic and cocky because you are a beautiful woman is NOT a negative abnormality, but the result of the god given gifts of youth, health, beauty and intelligence. If Amanda knows she is beautiful, young, healthy, athletic and intelligent then it follows that Amanda is sane and cognizant of reality.

There is no reason to assume that being cocky and narcissistic makes Amanda predisposed to a conspiracy to murder MK.

 

[Alt+F4]

The Norfolk Four case proves how easy it is to force an innocent person to confess.

And Amanda still didn't confess. I guess the police didn't try that hard to get her to.

 

[Alt+F4]

Just a wee correction, Alt+4. I said they got very little sleep that night, not that they were on the computer the whole time.

Ok, sorry about that. Isn't the contention now that there was human activity on the computer the entire night?

 

[Alt+F4]

Italy - Curse of the Camorra - 22 min 09 sec [22 February 2009]

transcript at http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=59497&tmpl=transcript


"VITTORIO PISANI (Translation): In my opinion, today in Italy, the end result of investigations, that is, the sentences and penalties meted out to criminals, do not reflect the gravity of the crimes committed.

To illustrate his point, Naples anti-crime chief Vittorio Pisani says nearly 50 clan members arrested four years ago and charged with Mafia conspiracy were able, through plea bargaining and court concessions, to gain their freedom in record time.

VITTORIO PISANI (Translation): It is unacceptable that Camorra members who had committed many murders and gained world wide notoriety, were released after just three years. What is needed most of all is tough action by the judiciary and that is lacking at the moment."

Hasn't Amanda already been in jail for 3 years?

I would think you would have to have more information on what "court concessions" actually meant in those cases. Could just be code for a bribe.

 

[RWVBWL]

<snip>
And though sleep-deprived Amanda hadn't been called to the police station she showed up anyway, knowing that---once Raffaele had started singin' a different tune--- the cops would want to speak to her as-soon-as-possible.
<snip>
///

Greetings Fine,
Reading your post today made me want to comment upon 1 thing, which I cut out and posted above.

Let's step back and have look at the whole picture:
Fine, Amanda Knox DID NOT run away and leave town after her housemate was murdered, as Rudy Guede did.

Fine, along with staying in Perugia to try + help the police solve a brutal murder, Amanda Knox, "though sleep-deprived" as you wrote,
also attended class at school at least 1 time that I am aware of.

Fine, Amanda Knox had no place to live, and also only the clothes on her back to live in too.

Amanda's housemate had been brutally stabbed to her death in the room right next door to her own!
Was she afraid? What woman wouldn't be!?!
Even some of Meredith Kercher's English girlfriends left town in fear shortly after her murder, IIRC.
Fine, from what I gather, she even told her boss that she had to quit working her night time job because she was living in fear of a murderer on the loose. And there was.

Fine, I don't know anything about your background or the neighborhood that you grew up in, but from my point of view,
-(a guy who knew/knows A LOT of good guys who surf, such as preachers, Peace Corps volunteers, etc, I also know many crazy dudes who surf(ed), including 1 who murdered his neighbor and set his house aflame, 1 who raped more than 1 woman, 1 who stabbed another "friend" when said "friend" dis-respected his pregnant girlfriend, another 1 who while in a fight broke a beer bottle and jabbed the broken neck into the others guys face and sliced off part of his nose, another who was killed in a shootout at a mall in Torrance, Califonia, etc.),
THERE IS NO WAY, in my humble opinion, that Amanda Knox,
had she participated in that bloody, brutal murder of her housemate, Meredith Kercher,
would ever go anywhere NEAR the police, nor the police station on her own free will. EVER!
Nor would anyone else...

UNLESS Amanda Knox did not have anything to do with the brutal murder of her housemate
and went only because she was simply in fear for her own safety and did not want to be left alone
while her boyfriend of only a few days went and answered questions, once again, for the police.

Of course our opinions may differ, but still,
have a nice day, Fine...
RWVBWL

PS-Thanks Mary H for the Andy Irons link!
Sad day for the surfing community...

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Your claim[?] is that AK is guilty because she has a personality abnormality of being cocky with a touch of narcissism.

My counter claim is that being slightly narcissistic and cocky because you are a beautiful woman is NOT a negative abnormality, but the result of the god given gifts of youth, health, beauty and intelligence. If Amanda knows she is beautiful, young, healthy, athletic and intelligent then it follows that Amanda is sane and cognizant of reality.

There is no reason to assume that being cocky and narcissistic makes Amanda predisposed to a conspiracy to murder MK.

It's a false premise to begin with. Nobody who actually knows Amanda would describe her as cocky or narcissistic. She is friendly and unpretentious, and she takes a sincere interest in people.

 

[Alt+F4]

Not sure what a "rep" is, but she was not alone.

In a video interview I saw of her (she speaks perfect English) she said she was at the school with her son and a locksmith, nothing about a "rep".

In the Massei report she doesn't say where the locksmith was when she saw Rudy coming out of her office. I'm sure her son was with her but I hope no one is going to argue that Rudy was frightened by a 6 year-old boy. In fact the report mentions the locksmith, the boy and the "rep" being present after the police arrived.

 

[LondonJohn]

As far as I know, mafia murderers are convicted and serve terms longer than three years even if they cooperate. However their penalties are sensibly shorter.
The matter is complex and there is controverse, there are very specific laws. Anyway mafia murderers are not just criminals, they are political enemies, like terrorists. The political nature of mafia, which is a political power, is among the criteria by which society establishes what is the best collective interest. A government may not like hizbullah or hamas, but may found convenient to negotiate or to issue special laws to settle agreements or to incentivate certain political choices.

Gosh, has the Mafia in Italy been democratically elected to office by a significant proportion of the general population then? Because that's why the Israeli government made concessions to Hamas, and the British government made concessions to Sinn Fein/IRA. Both organisations had political wings which came to represent the majority of the population in contested areas (Gaza/West Bank and the republican areas of Northern Ireland, respectively).

And there was me thinking that the Cosa Nostra was nothing more than a well-organised crime syndicate.......

 

[LondonJohn]

In a video interview I saw of her (she speaks perfect English) she said she was at the school with her son and a locksmith, nothing about a "rep".

In the Massei report she doesn't say where the locksmith was when she saw Rudy coming out of her office. I'm sure her son was with her but I hope no one is going to argue that Rudy was frightened by a 6 year-old boy. In fact the report mentions the locksmith, the boy and the "rep" being present after the police arrived.

You're seriously suggesting that physical "fright" would be the only reason why Guede might be deterred from attacking a woman in the presence of her 6-year-old son? What about the practical aspect that the boy could easily run away and shout for help if Guede turned violent? Or that it was a busy morning in daylight, in a public building in a major metropolitan area, and there was a fair chance that anyone could turn up at any time? In contrast to, say, a quiet, dark November night in an otherwise empty house overlooking a deserted ravine, with a pretty definite 1-vs-1 situation.......

 

[Katody Matrass]

_____________________

Katody Matrass,



And I can't grasp the innocentisti position on this either, aside from the claim (of Mary H) that Raffaele ---like Amanda a couple hours later that night---had been making one of them internalized false confessions/accusations.

Fine,
I will gladly explain my position to you. If you have some specific questions don't hesitate to ask.

 

[LondonJohn]

And Amanda still didn't confess. I guess the police didn't try that hard to get her to.

For the last time, yes she did confess. She did not confess to actually wielding the knife and killing Meredith. But she most definitely DID confess to being there in the house during the murder. She confessed to meeting with the murderer and bringing him to the house. She confessed to not doing anything to help the victim or alert the authorities after the murder. And she implicitly confessed to lying to the police and protecting the killer between November 2nd and November 5th. And she accused Lumumba of being the killer.

And guess what: It's highly likely that all of the above was false, and was the result of coercion.

Lest we forget the incredible words of Perugia Police Chief Arturo De Felice in a triumphalist press conference on November 6th:

"Initially the American (Knox) gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in. They all participated but had different roles."

 

[Justinian2]

It's a false premise to begin with. Nobody who actually knows Amanda would describe her as cocky or narcissistic. She is friendly and unpretentious, and she takes a sincere interest in people.

Is that an eyewitness account? (do you personally know her or her friends). A simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.

Otherwise, do you have a source you'd care to share? I think "Murder in Italy" pretty much says the same. However, the guilters don't like that source.

 

[Justinian2]

For the last time, yes she did confess. She did not confess to actually wielding the knife and killing Meredith. But she most definitely DID confess to being there in the house during the murder. She confessed to meeting with the murderer and bringing him to the house. She confessed to not doing anything to help the victim or alert the authorities after the murder. And she implicitly confessed to lying to the police and protecting the killer between November 2nd and November 5th. And she accused Lumumba of being the killer.

And guess what: It's highly likely that all of the above was false, and was the result of coercion.

Lest we forget the incredible words of Perugia Police Chief Arturo De Felice in a triumphalist press conference on November 6th:

"Initially the American (Knox) gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in. They all participated but had different roles."

Your claim is that Amanda confessed to:

being there in the house during the murder. She confessed to meeting with the murderer and bringing him to the house. She confessed to not doing anything to help the victim or alert the authorities after the murder. And she implicitly confessed to lying to the police and protecting the killer between November 2nd and November 5th. And she accused Lumumba of being the killer.

Could you provide a quote or quotes for that claim?

And is a 'confession' made under duress really a confession?

Black's Law dictionary defines a confession as being voluntary.

Furthermore, Black's Law states that a confession "discloses his guilt of that crime and excludes possibility of reasonable inference to contrary."

 

[LondonJohn]

Your claim is that Amanda confessed to:



Could you provide a quote or quotes for that claim?

And is a 'confession' made under duress really a confession?

A false confession is still a confession. As you might know by now, I believe that the Knox "confession/accusation" of the 5th/6th November 2007 was almost certainly coerced and false.

 

[Justinian2]

A false confession is still a confession. As you might know by now, I believe that the Knox "confession/accusation" of the 5th/6th November 2007 was almost certainly coerced and false.

I added the following after your quote.

Black's Law dictionary defines a confession as being voluntary.

Furthermore, Black's Law states that a confession "discloses his guilt of that crime and excludes possibility of reasonable inference to contrary."​

 

[Jungle Jim]

Sorry for the interuption.
Does anyone know when (date?) Rudy wrote his prison diary?
Thaks for any help.

Rudy's diary was written while in prison in Germany. Rudy was arrested in Germany on Nov. 20, 2007. He was extradited to Italy on Dec 6, 2007.