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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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He does not claim that. When the police informed Raffaele that Amanda was being investigated for the murder, he believed them and somehow conveyed to them (we don't know exactly how) that he had believed Amanda's lies and repeated them. He said that because he thought it was true, based on what the police said, that Amanda actually had lied.

<snip>

Mary H

Before we speculate on what you think RS believed (what) the cops implied (regarding what) AK was suspected of and why any of this would cause him to admit to lying [leaving aside the fact he threw her under the bus** first] ........
[[and still curious whether will this be used in the appeal and if so who can keep a straight face for the longest while this argument is being presented]] ......

Is the 'phantom interrogation' off the table or is it back in play?

** Do we have timetables for the street by the questra that night - precisely which bus did he throw her under.:confused:

.
 
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I am not sure the above link will work. But the Frontline documentary on this case was eye-opening and sobering. Previously I have suggested that Perugia should seek out Durham, NC as its sister city. Now I would suggest maybe Norfolk, VA would be at least equally appropriate.

A police hunch on who is guilty, followed by an arrest and coercive interrogation. When evidence from the crime scene doesn't match, they simply forge ahead and add another suspect to an ever more complex conspiracy theory. Where have we seen this before? :rolleyes:

The Norfolk Four case proves how easy it is to force an innocent person to confess.
 
Meredith light blue adidas jacket

Let's Follow Meredith's Blue Jacket.

This is the jacket that she was wearing that night. It was found by the corner of the wardrobe with the sleeves turned inside out. It had been forcibly removed from MK. There is a great deal of blood around the neck cuff that shows she was likely wearing this jacket when stabbed. It is in all ways important evidence. The person who killed MK would have roughly grabbed it while pulling it off of her. Rudy Guede's DNA was found on the cuff. As important as this jacket is - it was not immediately bagged and tested for DNA. It was left on the floor until Dec 18th.


Photo of jacket where originally photographed:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1332


Dec 18th photo. It is now on the floor over by the desk. It is surrounded by Amanda's lamp cord, yoga mat, bedside rug. The rug is the same one the bra clasp was found under:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=167674696590343&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034


The jacket is picked up, you can see the inside seem of the jacket from it being turned inside out:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=2029


It is spread out on the floor to measure, not the lab, the floor:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1447


It is not tagged and bagged. First, it is placed on the side of - THE LAUNDRY HAMPER. Yes, that's what I said:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?id=106344459390034&pid=207544#!/photo.php?id=106344459390034&pid=435653&fbid=167674693257010


I'm sure the side of a laundry hamper wouldn't have any trace contamination on it though. It's probably not a big thing.

I wonder why they chose not to bag it for DNA testing on Nov 2 though ?
 
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Let's Follow Meredith's Blue Jacket.

This is the jacket that she was wearing that night. It was found by the corner of the wardrobe with the sleeves turned inside out. It had been forcibly removed from MK. It is in all ways important evidence. The person who killed MK would have roughly grabbed it while removing it. Rudy Guede's DNA was found on the cuff. As important as this jacket is - it was not immediately bagged and tested for DNA. It was left on the floor until Dec 18th.


Photo of jacket where originally photographed:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1332


Dec 18th photo. It is now on the floor over by the desk. It is surrounded by Amanda's lamp cord, yoga mat, bedside rug. The rug is the same one the bra clasp was found under:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=167674696590343&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034


The jacket is picked up, you can see the inside seem of the jacket from it being turned inside out:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=2029


It is spread out on the floor to measure, not the lab, the floor:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1447


It is not tagged and bagged. First, it is placed on the side of - THE LAUNDRY HAMPER. Yes, that's what I said:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?id=106344459390034&pid=207544#!/photo.php?id=106344459390034&pid=435653&fbid=167674693257010


I'm sure the side of a laundry hamper wouldn't have any trace contamination on it though. It's probably not a big thing.

And ......How does get any of the 3 off - all 3 were convicted.

RG's DNA was part of the prosecution case.

Lets follow the appeal - the prosecution have already proved their case !

.
 
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A police hunch on who is guilty, followed by an arrest and coercive interrogation. When evidence from the crime scene doesn't match, they simply forge ahead and add another suspect to an ever more complex conspiracy theory. Where have we seen this before? :rolleyes:

The Norfolk Four case proves how easy it is to force an innocent person to confess.

http://www.dpdlaw.com/JessieFirstStatement.htm
 
And ......How does get any of the 3 off - all 3 were convicted.

RG's DNA was part of the prosecution case.

Lets follow the appeal - the prosecution have already proved their case !

.


It shows the forensic team as grossly incompetent. Everything collected on Dec 18th should be excluded. The jacket, purse, sock, bra clasp.

It also makes the claim of the bedroom being a secured storage place for items to be tested later rather ludicrous.

We've already seen from previous photos the red and white Pumas that MK was wearing that night were thrown into the pile of shoes by the bed. They also were not bagged on Nov 2nd. Also the boots MK's head was found resting on in the same pile.

I'm not saying the court will exclude the items.

They ought to.
 
Well, I think I answered previously simply by giving an explanation - while speaking with katy_did and Mary H - on what the rights of a suspect are.
Being "prepared" by a lawyer, in the time frame after the police arrest and before speaking with a preliminary investigation judge, is not a suspect's right. A detainee doesn't have the right to take counsel before his GIP interogation. One cannot claim an inviolable right on this point. This is a matter of principle. I think I replied, by stating that in my opinion it is not exactly fair to warrant a right to counsel before the hearing with the GIP, and this right doesn't belong to the procedure.

The defence rights of a suspect - in a logic of fair trial - have to be seen as conditions provided altogether: when a person is put under arrest, has the right to speak immediatly (with no delay) with a judge (within 48 hours), and there is a legal bond for the judicial office to make so this hearing with the suspect takes place immediatly. The office called G.I.P., which means judges for the preliminary investigation, always have a judge on duty for all cases of arrest and detention. The detainee has also the right to be assisted immediatly by a lawyer from the beginning of the detention, while the beginning of detention is considered by the time of validity of a decree of arrest. There is no right to have a counsel with the attorney prior to the GIP hearing. There is no rule that specifies that the detainee and an attorney must meet earlier in advance, to "prepare" for the GIP interrogation, no rule says this counsel must take place prior to the judge hearing. The right to legal assistence is immediate but not meant to be more immediate than the other immediate actions.

And meanwhile Raffaele was not "without rapresentation", properly he was without legal counsel during the time of his detention prior to the preliminary investigation judge hearing. Without a counsel in advance, obviously some defensive choices cannot be made, but the system is obviously not meant to allow the atorney to "properly prepare" the suspect for his appearance before a preliminary investigation judge. The GIP is, after all, an investigator as well as a judge, his task is to protect the quality of the investigation, not just the interests and rights of the arrested person.

If Tedeschi had any problem in finding the decree of differing, instead of just getting angry, he could have raised an objection to the questioning, since he spoke before Raffaele Sollecito. But this objection is missing. So because of the lack of this objection, while Amanda refused to speak, the interrogation of Sollecito took instead place, Raffaele made statements and answered the questioning. Only very late, before a court of Assise, the defence raises again the point, as after having realized they don't like Raffaele's statements, now they seek an opportunity to dismiss them.


With each new post of yours, the defendants are entitled to fewer and fewer rights.

Why were Amanda's pre-GIP statements thrown out by the Supreme Court?
 
<iframe frameborder="0" style="overflow: hidden; border: 0; margin: 0; padding: 0" width="514" height="366" scrollbars="none" type="text/html" src="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/v/?id=frol02s44c3qfba&w=514&h=366"></iframe>

I am not sure the above link will work. But the Frontline documentary on this case was eye-opening and sobering. Previously I have suggested that Perugia should seek out Durham, NC as its sister city. Now I would suggest maybe Norfolk, VA would be at least equally appropriate.


The case is almost identical to what happened in Perugia.

"Even when there's other evidence of innocence, the confession overrides that evidence. People ignore, jurors ignore that evidence," says law professor Richard Leo, who has studied false confessions. "If they were rational, objective, fair-minded police and prosecutors, they would have let everybody else go. But they couldn't admit what was so obvious: [that] they made a mistake, a big mistake. Four people had been interrogated coercively, confessed to a crime they didn't commit, and instead of acknowledging that mistake and these individuals' innocence, they tried to link Omar Ballard to these individuals. They tried to make it a group crime."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/etc/introduction.html


The show can be watched here:

http://video.pbs.org/program/979358040/
 
It shows the forensic team as grossly incompetent. Everything collected on Dec 18th should be excluded. The jacket, purse, sock, bra clasp.

It also makes the claim of the bedroom being a secured storage place for items to be tested later rather ludicrous.

We've already seen from previous photos the red and white Pumas that MK was wearing that night were thrown into the pile of shoes by the bed. They also were not bagged on Nov 2nd. Also the boots MK's head was found resting on in the same pile.

I'm not saying the court will exclude the items.

They ought to.

There ought to be a law :) .......... Tell it to the judge.

Are the defence adopting this line - throw out all the evidence ??
Can't fail as a strategy if its accepted by the court.

But I suspect the lawyers get paid the big bucks for doing slightly more than that.

Do you think RG was railroaded ? - or is it the bra clasp evidence you don't like.

.
 
Mary H

Before we speculate on what you think RS believed (what) the cops implied (regarding what) AK was suspected of and why any of this would cause him to admit to lying [leaving aside the fact he threw her under the bus** first] ........
[[and still curious whether will this be used in the appeal and if so who can keep a straight face for the longest while this argument is being presented]] ......

Is the 'phantom interrogation' off the table or is it back in play?

** Do we have timetables for the street by the questra that night - precisely which bus did he throw her under.:confused:

.


Four pages ago, I wrote, "I am not holding tight and fast to a firm claim that Mignini interrogated Raffaele on the 5th or 6th. I am saying there are suggestions it is a possibility."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6533282&postcount=14018

It was never a make-or-break point on my part. Machiavelli just picked it out of one of my posts instead of picking out something else; I don't know why.

Isn't it interesting that the only reports we have of people throwing people under buses (Raffaele>Amanda, Amanda>Patrick, Rudy>Amanda & Raffaele) are from periods when authorities were present and involved, and none of the three of them did any of the under-the-bus-throwing on their own initiative?
 
Your failure to object to the posts which prompt the responses you find so offensive is duly noted.

I don't have the free time to play both sides of an irrelevant "gotcha" game just to avoid the terrible threat of you noting things. Sorry.


A fact, hardly - that's your assertion. I don't believe anybody on this thread has either the expertise or access to the raw case data to make that claim.

All the data you need is in the Massei report. Massei just misinterpreted it. We've fixed the court's mistake to establish the correct time of death.

But have you dropped your claim that death was definitely before 9.30pm. Yes/No ?
That seemed to be a mainstay of your earlier analysis.

You don't appear to have understood my earlier analysis very well if you think so.

The most likely time of death based on the state of Meredith's bowels, the eyewitness testimony, the phone records, her body temperature and so on is about 21:05, as soon as she got home. Each slice of time after that is less likely than the one before, and by 22:00 or 22:30 we're getting into the realm of the staggeringly unlikely.

On the first - 1 of the pair was, probably both - no biggie.

On the second - disputed to put it mildly - lets see what the appeal brings ?

I was not aware of any dispute on this matter - can you provide a citation to any credible source disputing the appeal team's claim that the computer records show a Naruto file being opened at 21:26?

In a nutshell - Rudy is a convicted murderer, his obviously self serving claims have to be viewed with a certain skepticism.
[Nor am I convinced that this is an accurate summation of the totality of his/the evidence in any case. Obviously the earlier he is off the scene the better for him.]

No even mildly plausible story has been put forth as to why Rudy, in his initial claim before he had the chance to alter it to conform with the prosecution's favoured narrative, would put the time of death back two hours for no reason. Excellent reasons have been given for why he would not want to do so: If someone saw him hanging around Meredith's house at 20:30 and he claimed he was not there at that time, he'd be in deep trouble.

It would be far more logical for Rudy to make up a story that was accurate in terms of timing and the details of what he did and touched, except with the murder and rape being carried out by a stranger while he was in the loo with headphones on.

False on all 3 counts - the first 2 [probably all 3] seem indisputable on the evidence presented.

Now this is the sort of thing we're looking for - genuine new ideas or evidence.

What do you think the evidence is for a staged break-in or a clean-up, other than the moles we have already whacked flat three or more times? Why do you think that the criticisms we have made against Massei's reasoning with regard to the alleged break-in and clean-up do not demonstrate that they are nonsensical?

I thought we had all these issues nailed down pretty thoroughly, but I'm open to hearing something new on these topics.

To sum up ........

The above has been gone over and over ad nauseam.

Where are the appeal docs and the arguments on same -
which was the whole point of my post [others have asked this before but to no avail].

The courts will decide - lets address the salient issues.

.

Not this damned mole again?

The court can decide whatever it likes. I'm only interested in the process to the extent that it brings up new evidence or arguments - for example, the claimed evidence that shows that we were right all along in thinking that Amanda and Raffaele were at home with their computers all night.

You haven't answered that question by the way - if it turns out that the computer logs indeed show activity all the way through the entire time in which Meredith could possibly have been murdered, would that change your view of the case in any way?
 
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According to Amanda's trial testimony, the trip was to be in "the morning". It was Mary H. who said she thinks they were sleeping in until mid day to make up for the fact that they were up all night, on the computer. If they had plans for the morning, why stay up all night on the computer?

Why no mention from Rafaelle that he at least, was up for multiple hours on the computer?


Just a wee correction, Alt+4. I said they got very little sleep that night, not that they were on the computer the whole time.
 
Let's Follow Meredith's Blue Jacket.

This is the jacket that she was wearing that night. It was found by the corner of the wardrobe with the sleeves turned inside out. It had been forcibly removed from MK. There is a great deal of blood around the neck cuff that shows she was likely wearing this jacket when stabbed. It is in all ways important evidence. The person who killed MK would have roughly grabbed it while pulling it off of her. Rudy Guede's DNA was found on the cuff. As important as this jacket is - it was not immediately bagged and tested for DNA. It was left on the floor until Dec 18th.


Photo of jacket where originally photographed:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1332


Dec 18th photo. It is now on the floor over by the desk. It is surrounded by Amanda's lamp cord, yoga mat, bedside rug. The rug is the same one the bra clasp was found under:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=167674696590343&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034


The jacket is picked up, you can see the inside seem of the jacket from it being turned inside out:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=2029


It is spread out on the floor to measure, not the lab, the floor:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1447


It is not tagged and bagged. First, it is placed on the side of - THE LAUNDRY HAMPER. Yes, that's what I said:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?id=106344459390034&pid=207544#!/photo.php?id=106344459390034&pid=435653&fbid=167674693257010


I'm sure the side of a laundry hamper wouldn't have any trace contamination on it though. It's probably not a big thing.

I wonder why they chose not to bag it for DNA testing on Nov 2 though ?

And that, in an indisputable photographic nutshell, is an unimpeachable illustration of the incompetence of the "crack" Perugia crime scene officers. So many of the most basic rules of crime scene analysis have been broken here that it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

Add into that the following: the way the bra clasp was handed around and placed back onto the floor; the visibly dirty latex gloves worn by the collectors; the very state of the murder room after it having been "sealed" for six weeks; the fact that they stepped all over the footprints in the hallway for hours before noticing their existence; the ludicrous wiping/smearing actions with which they took swab samples (rather than "dabbing" which is the proper way to take swabs); the general sense of disorganisation and overcrowding in the murder room and corridors. And it all adds up to a crime scene analysis operation that is simply not fit for purpose.
 
Incidentally, some have argued in the past that the blood on Meredith's blue jacket is indicative of the fact that she was wearing it when she was stabbed. However, from looking at the pattern of bloodstaining on the jacket, together with the first photo of the jacket in situ (before it was moved), I think it's more likely that the blood on the jacket came from it having rested in a pool of blood.

I think it's most likely that Meredith was confronted, forced onto her knees, and a knife was held at her throat while her assailant forcibly removed her jacket from behind (resulting in the sleeves being turned inside out). I think that the assailant then lifted Meredith's top to access her bra and her breasts, and started to remove her jeans. I think that at this point, Meredith may have tried to resist or fight, resulting in the fatal wounds to her neck. I think that the assailant then turned Meredith over onto her back, placed the pillow under her hips, and completed his sexual assault (which I believe may very well have been rape) while Meredith was incapacitated and dying from the neck wounds. The relative lack of bruising on the inner thighs and genitalia add weight to the theory that Meredith was incapacitated at the time that the sexual assault occurred. And the apparent fact that there is aspirated blood spray on both the bra and the breasts below indicates that the bra was removed while Meredith was bleeding - again, this is consistent with the sexual assault continuing to conclusion only after the stabbing occurred.
 
Italy - Curse of the Camorra - 22 min 09 sec [22 February 2009]

transcript at http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=59497&tmpl=transcript


"VITTORIO PISANI (Translation): In my opinion, today in Italy, the end result of investigations, that is, the sentences and penalties meted out to criminals, do not reflect the gravity of the crimes committed.

To illustrate his point, Naples anti-crime chief Vittorio Pisani says nearly 50 clan members arrested four years ago and charged with Mafia conspiracy were able, through plea bargaining and court concessions, to gain their freedom in record time.

VITTORIO PISANI (Translation): It is unacceptable that Camorra members who had committed many murders and gained world wide notoriety, were released after just three years. What is needed most of all is tough action by the judiciary and that is lacking at the moment."

Hasn't Amanda already been in jail for 3 years?
 
The arguments have been presented in court and there is an upcoming appeal.

A discussion of said appeal would be welcome - lets see human translations of all the relevant docs and opinions on chances of success on the various points.

But mostly what we are faced with here are theories, complaints, 'evidence by anecdote', ill informed expert analysis etc.

I wish we had human translations of all the relevant documents as well. PMF has provided the one with the Massei report translation. I understand that was a massive and time consuming undertaking of a long report. We do have a nice summary provided by Bruce and David K at IIP of both appeals and thoughtful gave us a nice summary of Raffaele's appeal at PMF. Cantnip also provided a summary of the Mignini/Comodi appeal, also at PMF. Mark W provided a well written chapter regarding an analysis of the Motivation report recently at Science Spheres and Frank (yes Frank) has given some summaries of the reports as well. Both myself and katy_did have posted sections from the appeals that have been human translated by various persons. Google translations are available for both appeals and although they are not perfect they are still usable. I would love to see some sort of translation of the latest filing by Raffaele's defense or even a Google translation of it.

I recently posted two sections from Raffaele's appeal that had been human translated and they both received very little attention. Earlier reports like the Micheli and Matteini reports have not been human translated either. I know Bruce was trying to get a human translation of at least one of the appeals done before the appeal hearing but I don't know if that is still a possibility. Until then we deal with what we have and we can argue based on what we have. Many people have made opinions on the outcome of the appeals and chances of success.

Personally, I don't think expert opinions have all been ill informed. I am looking forward to the upcoming analysis by Ron Hendry of the crime scene. I have a feeling it will be educational.
 
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Your failure to object to the posts which prompt the responses you find so offensive is duly noted.

I don't have the free time to play both sides of an irrelevant "gotcha" game just to avoid the terrible threat of you noting things. Sorry.


But it seems you do have the free time to initiate them.

I see. :rolleyes:

I have no idea why you should feel threatened by your own actions. Consequently I have offered none. Pointing out the significance of someone's statements is done here all the time. That is an observation, not a threat. If you somehow believe otherwise then you are struggling with issues which I have no control over.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Ah, you are referring to the testimony of Maria del Prato, the owner of the nursery school. He has been caught burglarizing the school by her, yet he doesn't attempt to kill her, doesn't assult her and even waits around while she calls the police. :

Could it be because she was not alone there?:rolleyes:

from the PMF Motivation Translation p.45 said:
At the hearing of June 27, 2009, the witness Maria Antonietta Salvadori Del Prato Titone testified that on the morning of October 27, 2007, a Saturday, as she entered the nursery school at via Plinio 16, Milan, of which she was the principal, she noticed coming out of her office a person whom she didn't know, later identified as Rudy Guede. There were no signs of a break-in. There was some money missing from the money box, but just small change. Rudy Guede had a backpack inside which was a computer. Called at once, the police made him open the backpack, in which they found a 40cm kitchen knife. She recalled that there were other objects in the backpack: a bunch of keys, a small gold woman's watch, and a tiny hammer of the type found in buses to smash windows. The police told her that the computer had been stolen from a law office in Perugia. The witness stated that she was with her six year old son, with a smith [fabbro] who was there to do some work, and with a rep. :

Not sure what a "rep" is, but she was not alone.
 
quadraginta said:


quadraginta, You seem to be one of many that don't believe Raffaele claimed to have been using his computer through the time frame when the murder occurred. Yet earlier you made the statement:

A computer which, it seems, showed no evidence of having been in use during the time period he claimed to be using it.


Can you enlighten us on where this mass false memory came from?
 
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