Arizona legislators at it again?

[Grizzly Adams]

The ability for police to detain somebody and request proof of citizenship on 'reasonable suspicion' of being an illegal allows the officer to do just that, make it a brown vs white situation.

Given its prohibition on racial profiling, it would seem the law explicitly forecloses it being "a brown vs white situation".

 

[tyr_13]

Given its prohibition on racial profiling, it would seem the law explicitly forecloses it being "a brown vs white situation".

'I'm not a bigot but....'

Now I'm not saying that any law trying to enforce immigration policy is a bad one, but just saying 'don't racially profile' doesn't in and of itself mean the policy won't have that effect.

 

[Uncayimmy]

'I'm not a bigot but....'

Your arguments make a lot more sense now.

Now I'm not saying that any law trying to enforce immigration policy is a bad one, but just saying 'don't racially profile' doesn't in and of itself mean the policy won't have that effect.

Fortunately, racial profiling is already illegal, so it really wouldn't matter if it were in the law or not.

The fact is that properly enforcing immigration law is going to affect Mexicans more than any other group. This is because Mexicans break the law far more than any other group. You and others seem to twist this around to argue that the issue is really with brown people and that enforcing immigration laws is somehow a form of bigotry. That's just wrong.

Come visit Arizona for a few weeks. Mexicans and those of Mexican heritage make up a huge proportion of the population. "Whites" and "browns" mix together just fine. Easily 2/3 of the kids and staff at my kids' daycare are brown. The elementary school down the street is probably majority brown. There are countless doctors, nurses, mechanics, clerks, and other brown workers everywhere you go. Nobody really cares. It's just not an issue. Most people don't even notice.

The issue is illegals, and that's a common ground among whites, browns and every other hue you can imagine.

 

[tyr_13]

Your arguments make a lot more sense now.

Why do you have to personalize the discussion? But you're right, I hate the brownies.

Fortunately, racial profiling is already illegal, so it really wouldn't matter if it were in the law or not.

Exactly. I'm saying that simply saying in the bill 'race isn't a valid reason', in and of itself, is useless without the policy and regulations actually preventing such. How many Jim Crow laws actually said, 'those evil black guys' or such?

The fact is that properly enforcing immigration law is going to affect Mexicans more than any other group. This is because Mexicans break the law far more than any other group. You and others seem to twist this around to argue that the issue is really with brown people and that enforcing immigration laws is somehow a form of bigotry. That's just wrong.

Firstly that isn't what I was saying, and secondly there are people advocating, and perhaps even creating, such measures specifically because of their own personal bigotry. Trying to keep that influence out as much as possible, even if you want stronger enforcement, is a good thing.

Come visit Arizona for a few weeks. Mexicans and those of Mexican heritage make up a huge proportion of the population. "Whites" and "browns" mix together just fine. Easily 2/3 of the kids and staff at my kids' daycare are brown. The elementary school down the street is probably majority brown. There are countless doctors, nurses, mechanics, clerks, and other brown workers everywhere you go. Nobody really cares. It's just not an issue. Most people don't even notice.

The issue is illegals, and that's a common ground among whites, browns and every other hue you can imagine.

Not the argument I was making thanks.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Like Grizzly said, that's just not the case. I've lived in Phoenix for 10 years now, and I'm continually amazed at how people keep making this a brown versus white issue when it's really not.

Try living there as a brown person. I did.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Why do you have to personalize the discussion? But you're right, I hate the brownies.

Personalizing?

Exactly. I'm saying that simply saying in the bill 'race isn't a valid reason', in and of itself, is useless without the policy and regulations actually preventing such. How many Jim Crow laws actually said, 'those evil black guys' or such?

Quite a few, actually. Separate but equal was legal. I have no idea what you're driving at. The protections are in place to prevent discrimination. It's a red herring to bring it up because any policy could be abused that way.

Firstly that isn't what I was saying, and secondly there are people advocating, and perhaps even creating, such measures specifically because of their own personal bigotry. Trying to keep that influence out as much as possible, even if you want stronger enforcement, is a good thing.

Where is your evidence that bigotry is the motivation? Can you cite some examples?

Not the argument I was making thanks.

Unfortunately, I find your posts wanting of substance, so I have to guess as to your meaning. The above is another example.

 

[leftysergeant]

Whats the difference between nazi's and socialism

I don't have time to educate someone so grossly ignorant of history as you appear to be here.

The big difference between Nazis and most everybody else in this country is that Nazis have not given up on the idea that being white gives them the right to kill other people who aren't white.

I would consider it a better country if they could all be frog marched to the border of another country that lacks the rersources to ever be a military power and doesn't mind accepting a few thousand slobbering psychopaths. Problem is that any law allowing that would also ingfringe on the rights of other people who are not worthless scumbags.

 

[leftysergeant]

Where is your evidence that bigotry is the motivation? Can you cite some examples?

Russell Pearce is a known Nazi symapathizer. He is performing the role of what the white nationalist scum call a "legal," from inside government.

Please God, let that dirtbag's career be short.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Try living there as a brown person. I did.

Is this you (the shorter one)? Or is there another ThaiBoxerKen in Portland?
http://www.myspace.com/thaiboxerken/photos/3386743

You don't look particularly brown to me nor does your name indicate Hispanic heritage. Assuming that's you, of course.

Arizona is 30% Hispanic, and Phoenix is about 40% Hispanic. It's kind of hard to uphold the ideals of racism against such a large proportion of the population. Sure, there are some racists - there always are. Truth is, even in Arizona it's hard to discuss illegals without being accused of bigotry. The Phoenix New Times, a local independent weekly, always makes it a brown issue no matter what. The main newspaper, The Arizona Republic, won't even refer to illegals as illegals. They refer to them as "undocumented immigrants" even though they are documented and quite a few are not immigrants at all but transients. The proper term is illegal aliens, but they won't use that term. Local news talking heads use the same incorrect language.

So, really, I just don't think it's fair to color the issue of dealing with illegals as a matter of bigotry. Everyone I've talked to about it doesn't care what color the people are and have no issues with those who follow the admittedly screwed up immigration laws.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Maybe not, but the 'solutions' so far proposed seem to put it in that framework. The ability for police to detain somebody and request proof of citizenship on 'reasonable suspicion' of being an illegal allows the officer to do just that, make it a brown vs white situation.

Funny, if that were the case, you'd think us brown people would be up in arms

 

[cwalner]

Funny, if that were the case, you'd think us brown people would be up in arms

judging from the news coverage I've seen, a good number are.

 

[pipelineaudio]

judging from the news coverage I've seen, a good number are.

I've seen Cauzzies of all colors protesting this, seems the same as when they protest GMO's or nuclear power or whatever

 

[thaiboxerken]

Is this you (the shorter one)? Or is there another ThaiBoxerKen in Portland?

That's me. The flash really whitewashed both me and my friend there. We are both brown. I, from my Okinawa mother, and he is Arab.

Also, I'm often mistaken for Hispanic. I've had to deal with racism because of it. Also, because I'm not really Hispanic, I've also had the "pleasure" of hearing the good-ol-boy talk as well.

So, really, I just don't think it's fair to color the issue of dealing with illegals as a matter of bigotry.

I do, especially when they're writing laws that encourage racial profiling. Also, those introducing the laws happen to be big time white supremacists.

 

[tyr_13]

Personalizing?

Taking my saying 'I'm not a bigot but...' at apparent face value.

Quite a few, actually. Separate but equal was legal. I have no idea what you're driving at. The protections are in place to prevent discrimination. It's a red herring to bring it up because any policy could be abused that way.

Of course any policy could be abused in that way, but especially one where almost all offenders are going to fall into one racial or ethnic group. That's why those sort of laws need extra attention payed to the potential for that type of abuse.

Where is your evidence that bigotry is the motivation? Can you cite some examples?

I find Lefty's example more than adequate.

Unfortunately, I find your posts wanting of substance, so I have to guess as to your meaning. The above is another example.

It seems you want to have a different conversation with responses that fit your prediction of what someone arguing a counter point might say. I couldn't care less if a lot of brown people and white people agree on it. I'm not saying, 'lots of brown people oppose this so it needs looking at'. Nor am I arguing that I know a lot about Arizona's population and therefore my view is more valid. I'm also not saying that there is a lot of racial tension and racial profiling and therefor it needs looked at.

Frankly I care more about the legal situation than racial tensions (or lack thereof) in Arizona.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

If you're referring to Ark, it wouldn't require a reversal. They could let Ark stand given a case with different facts. Ark had a family with a permanent residence doing business in the USA.

That is totally immaterial to the issue. WKA's parents were not the ones in court, WKA was.

That doesn't necessarily apply to a woman here illegally and temporarily giving birth to a child. It doesn't necessarily apply to a woman here legally on a visa giving birth to a child.

Yes it does, since the status of the parent is totally besides the point. That is the conclusion that the court reached in WKA.

from Afroyim v. Rusk:

The very nature of our free government makes it completely incongruous to have a rule of law under which a group of citizens temporarily in office can deprive another group of citizens of their citizenship. We hold that the Fourteenth Amendment was designed to, and does, protect every citizen of this Nation against a congressional forcible destruction of his citizenship, whatever his creed, color, or race. Our holding does no more than to give to this citizen that which is his own, a constitutional right to remain a citizen in a free country unless he voluntarily relinquishes that citizenship.

 

[Uncayimmy]

That is totally immaterial to the issue. WKA's parents were not the ones in court, WKA was.

Then you don't understand the case.

 

[mhaze]

That's me. The flash really whitewashed both me and my friend there. We are both brown. I, from my Okinawa mother, and he is Arab.

Also, I'm often mistaken for Hispanic. I've had to deal with racism because of it. Also, because I'm not really Hispanic, I've also had the "pleasure" of hearing the good-ol-boy talk as well.

I do, especially when they're writing laws that encourage racial profiling. Also, those introducing the laws happen to be big time white supremacists.

So you're just another Eurasian who might find his sensitivities offended by being mistaken for a heavy Spanish mixed blood Mexican on occasion and asked to present some ID by a police officer trying to stem the drug trafficking and kidnapping problems in an area that resembles in many ways a war zone.

Here's some advice. Grow up.

 

[thaiboxerken]

So you're just another Eurasian who might find his sensitivities offended by being mistaken for a heavy Spanish mixed blood Mexican on occasion and asked to present some ID by a police officer trying to stem the drug trafficking and kidnapping problems in an area that resembles in many ways a war zone.

Yea.. because AZ really is like a war zone.
Stop watching Fox News.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Given its prohibition on racial profiling, it would seem the law explicitly forecloses it being "a brown vs white situation".

Then you have never seen a Mexican, and you have never seen an Arizonan

 

[Alferd_Packer]

So you're just another Eurasian who might find his sensitivities offended by being mistaken for a heavy Spanish mixed blood Mexican on occasion and asked to present some ID by a police officer trying to stem the drug trafficking and kidnapping problems in an area that resembles in many ways a war zone.

Here's some advice. Grow up.

I suggest you heed your own advice.