So? The state has to issue the birth certificate.

I never suggested that they could opt not to. But they're still doing it. Which means that your claim was wrong.

Any registrar who refuses has committed a federal crime

Really? Can you quote the statute that makes this a federal crime? I don't think you can.

Many things which are not permitted by law are still not crimes. But hey, why let things like facts get in the way of a good rant?
 
I never suggested that they could opt not to. But they're still doing it. Which means that your claim was wrong.



Really? Can you quote the statute that makes this a federal crime? I don't think you can.

Many things which are not permitted by law are still not crimes. But hey, why let things like facts get in the way of a good rant?
The 14th Ammendment is law. State registrars are, as I recall, legally obligated to uphold the constitution. Any dirtbag registrar refusing to issue the certificate is failing to uphold the constitution. Misfeasance of public duty, any way you slice it.
 
The 14th Ammendment is law.

The 14th Amendment doesn't criminalize anything. In fact, the ONLY thing that's criminalized by the constitution is treason, which isn't applicable here.

State registrars are, as I recall, legally obligated to uphold the constitution.

I didn't say they weren't.

Any dirtbag registrar refusing to issue the certificate is failing to uphold the constitution.

It may shock you to learn that this isn't a crime.
 
Last I heard, it was a crime to conspire to violate a person's civil rioghts on the basis of race or ancestory.
 
I did say "in the absence of a court opinion".
Trouble is, the authority to interpret the Constitution (or to resolve disputes arising from the Constitution) is granted to the judiciary by the Constitution.

So there is no "in the absence of a court opinion" when talking about a dispute over the constitutionality of a law.
 
I know what it's about. What you AND I don't know is what it actually does. And the constitutionality depends on what it does.
But it can't possibly "do" anything wrt to the citizenship of citizens (people born in the U.S. and subject to U.S. jurisdiction) without being unconstitutional.

So if it's a law "about" this topic, it is unconstitutional.

The state has no authority to pass or enforce any law that abridges the privileges and immunities of citizens.

Seriously, why is the idea of waiting to see what it says before jumping to conclusions somehow controversial?
You're being disingenuous. The guy has fully admitted what he's trying to do with this law.

I think you're right, though, that this law won't ever get far enough along for us to read it. At least I hope not. Even that much would be a waste of Arizona's resources.

ETA: And that wastefulness is reason enough to criticize this proposed law even now.
 
Last edited:
The 14th Ammendment is law. State registrars are, as I recall, legally obligated to uphold the constitution. Any dirtbag registrar refusing to issue the certificate is failing to uphold the constitution. Misfeasance of public duty, any way you slice it.

I wouldn't bother arguing this hypothetical. It will never come to pass. Even if the law gets passed, it will be enjoined before it goes into effect.
 
If this bill actually gets written and made public (there's still a chance it won't even make it that far), then you'll have plenty of time to examine it and criticize it, but you're jumping the gun right now.

It is never too early to start slapping a Nazi dirtnag's head around and telling people not to listen to him when he tries to install into law a part of the National Alliance aggenda. Never give a Nazi an inch. They don't even deserve to be spoken of as though they were decent human beings. Never met one that was worth a damn.
 
It is never too early to start slapping a Nazi dirtnag's head around and telling people not to listen to him when he tries to install into law a part of the National Alliance aggenda. Never give a Nazi an inch. They don't even deserve to be spoken of as though they were decent human beings. Never met one that was worth a damn.

I think there is a valid point in here somewhere.

In addition to the issue of wasting time and resources I already mentioned, there is also the point that this guy seems to want to write a law he knows is unconstitutional just to make the news.

In other words, he's just playing to divisiveness. It's sort of the Fox News approach to debate (just line up the extreme opposing views and let them scream at each other). This isn't a good way to hear various points of view and arrive at reasonable and legal policies.
 

This is going to be comedy gold. I cannot wait for the GOP to try dealing with the inevitable mess this is going to create for them. Remember how the Republicans split so openly earlier this year when there was talk flying around about "adjusting" the 14th Amendment?

If they keep this up, the GOP might as well kiss the Hispanic vote goodbye for a generation or more. And while it might be good short-term politics, this is going to come back and bite them in the ass, big time. Just like their opposition to the Civil Rights Act basically cost them the black vote in perpetuity.
 
Last edited:
If they keep this up, the GOP might as well kiss the Hispanic vote goodbye for a generation or more. And while it might be good short-term politics, this is going to come back and bite them in the ass, big time. Just like their opposition to the Civil Rights Act basically cost them the black vote in perpetuity.

Which is a damn shame, cause on many other social issues, the Reps tend to agree with many Hispanic voters. I also remember not that long ago when most Southwestern Republicans actually espoused tough but sensible immigration policies. This included a particular AZ senator and a one-time TX governor (hell that was one thing I actually agreed with W on).

This is why this is so troubling to me. This to me seems out of character for traditional GOP policies on immigration. This is one stark example of a definite move away from mainstream to extreme positions influenced by the TP.
 
Trouble is, the authority to interpret the Constitution (or to resolve disputes arising from the Constitution) is granted to the judiciary by the Constitution.

So there is no "in the absence of a court opinion" when talking about a dispute over the constitutionality of a law.


Huh?

In the absence of an opinion by a court, every law is "constitutional". It's the way our system works. as I wrote it, my comment was exactly accurate - in the absence of an opinion to the contrary, a law is constitutional.
 
Huh?

In the absence of an opinion by a court, every law is "constitutional". It's the way our system works. as I wrote it, my comment was exactly accurate - in the absence of an opinion to the contrary, a law is constitutional.

Fair enough. But the problem is there is not an absence of court opinions on the 14th Amendment on this point.*

[ETA: I misread your post, I think, to be saying that while you were aware of court opinion, it was reasonable for a state to ignore it. It sounds instead as if you were simply unaware of these Supreme Court cases that have already interpreted the 14th Amendment this way.]

You're correct that any law passed enjoys the presumption of constitutionality, but if a state passes a law abridging the privileges and immunities of citizens, that law, as I have said, will be enjoined before it can go into effect.

I agree with Ziggurat's assessment that this law will probably never get that far. Even the sponsor admits that it's a political stunt meant to test the judiciary's current opinion on this matter.

*ETA: U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) reversed the court's position spelled out in an earlier case (Elk v. Wilkins 1884), and has been the law since--saying that children of illegals (who are not enemies of the U.S. or diplomats not subject to US jurisdiction) are citizens. See also Perkins v. Elg (1939), Afroyim v. Rusk (1967), and Phyler v. Doe (1982). Given this legal history, it is not reasonable to interpret the 14th Amendment the way you suggested might be reasonable.
 
Last edited:
From Afroyim v. Rusk

The very nature of our free government makes it completely incongruous to have a rule of law under which a group of citizens temporarily in office can deprive another group of citizens of their citizenship. We hold that the Fourteenth Amendment was designed to, and does, protect every citizen of this Nation against a congressional forcible destruction of his citizenship, whatever his creed, color, or race. Our holding does no more than to give to this citizen that which is his own, a constitutional right to remain a citizen in a free country unless he voluntarily relinquishes that citizenship.

Short of a new amendment itself, there is nothing that they can do.
 
Last edited:
Fair enough. But the problem is there is not an absence of court opinions on the 14th Amendment on this point.*

[ETA: I misread your post, I think, to be saying that while you were aware of court opinion, it was reasonable for a state to ignore it. It sounds instead as if you were simply unaware of these Supreme Court cases that have already interpreted the 14th Amendment this way.]

You're correct that any law passed enjoys the presumption of constitutionality, but if a state passes a law abridging the privileges and immunities of citizens, that law, as I have said, will be enjoined before it can go into effect.

I agree with Ziggurat's assessment that this law will probably never get that far. Even the sponsor admits that it's a political stunt meant to test the judiciary's current opinion on this matter.

*ETA: U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) reversed the court's position spelled out in an earlier case (Elk v. Wilkins 1884), and has been the law since--saying that children of illegals (who are not enemies of the U.S. or diplomats not subject to US jurisdiction) are citizens. See also Perkins v. Elg (1939), Afroyim v. Rusk (1967), and Phyler v. Doe (1982). Given this legal history, it is not reasonable to interpret the 14th Amendment the way you suggested might be reasonable.


If "upon further review" works for the NFL, why should it not be available to you? I think you have the right of it now, but just in case:

At the time of my first post, I was unaware of a specific court ruling that interpreted the 14th as US v WKA does. Even unaware of such a ruling, I was aware that any argument based on jurisdiction would likely fail, and that it would likely take an amendment to deny citizenship as birthright.
 
Maybe the Serbs still have a place for their kind.

That is really insulting to the victims of Radovan Karadzic, Slobodan Milosevic and Ratko Mladic.

How many Mexican women were raped as a means of genocide?

How many men and boys were slaughtered en masse?
 
Russel Pearce, yesterday:

The next item on Pearce's agenda is a law challenging federal court rulings that the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees U.S. citizenship to those born in this country, even if their parents were here illegally.

"It's an unconstitutional application of birthright citizenship which was never intended," he said.
 
The whole birthright citizenship thing is rather interesting. Anybody who says it's a clear cut issue is bonkers. The whole "subject to the jurisdiction" thing isn't cut and dried. The way the 14th Amendment is written doesn't address parentage. It's basically saying, "is the person born here subject to the jurisdiction of the USA."

Well, aliens, legal or otherwise, are not subject to the same jurisdiction as an ordinary citizen (you see it gets kinda circular here). For one thing, they can't be drafted and can't serve in the military. Illegal aliens can be expelled at will. Legal aliens have no "right" to be here and can be expelled easily. Since typically they are citizens of other countries (assuming both parents were citizens of a foreign country), they could be convicted of treason in that country, serve in that country's government, and even be forced to serve in the military.

Was "subject to the jurisdiction" only intended for diplomats? I don't think so. After all, diplomats are still subject to jurisdiction, albeit very limited jurisdiction in some cases. At the time it was widely recognized that children of diplomats weren't citizens anyway, so there wasn't much need to address that issue.

Around that time the civil rights act that was passed declared, "All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are declared to be citizens of the United States." (emphasis added) That provides some context about the intent of the 14th Amendment. Furthermore, when we think about the intent, did the states passing it envision that the child of a husband and wife spy team being a citizen? If an army invaded the USA, would children born to the invaders while on American soil be citizens?

According to this site, Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee (39th Congress), James F. Wilson of Iowa, added on March 1, 1866: “We must depend on the general law relating to subjects and citizens recognized by all nations for a definition, and that must lead us to the conclusion that every person born in the United States is a natural-born citizen of such States, except that of children born on our soil to temporary sojourners or representatives of foreign Governments.”

Apparently Senator Trumbull at that time declared, "The provision is, that ‘all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means." (ibid)

To me it makes a lot more sense that the intention was not to include legal or illegal aliens. Would Americans have really intended to create a situation where citizens of another country could pop across the border for a day, have a baby, return back to their home country, then send that kid back 35 years later so he could run for the president of the United States? Seriously. We prohibit naturalized citizens from running, but we wouldn't want to prohibit the aforementioned scenario?

That subsequent court rulings and decisions have muddied the waters is not in doubt. It's not crystal clear. Personally, I think the right way to handle it is to create an amendment to the amendment clearing it up once and for all. I, for one, don't think that exiting the womb on American soil should grant someone citizenship. There are plenty of other countries that feel the same way.
 

Back
Top Bottom