Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

I have no idea. I know some spots were identified by DNA as Amanda's blood. I think none of the traces find at Sollecito's could be significant evidence, so I think there is no reason to put much effort into this investigation, neither from the prosecution nor from the defence prespective.

I don't think a cleanup at Raffaele's place would show Amanda's blood, it would show Meredith's (as well as her DNA). If they were just tested for DNA, Amanda's DNA showing up in Raffaele's apartment is no big deal. I believe Charlie posted regarding this and none of the Luminol stains at Raffaele's were shown to contain Meredith's blood or DNA.

 

[katy_did]

It appears that they did not confirm the 11:30 Alex and later with Philip, although he evidently was with somebody according to Borsini report: (Google translation)

Though Rudy's lawyer's are trying to challenge this in his appeal, according to Frank.

The Spy Who Came in from the Law Office

Biscotti & Gentile had a young female collaborator to go undercover among the youths who knew Rudi. Rudi's friends told her she had seen him after the crime, which contradicts what they had stated to the police, that they had not seen him at all that night.

Testimony and records discovered by the beautiful spy weren't admitted by the court. With the appeal Biscotti & Gentile asked the Supreme Court to admit it.

The idea is that if Rudi's friends lied about the after-crime, they may have lied, too, about the pre-crime when they said to have not seen Rudi talking with Meredith the night before.

I'm assuming "Rudi's friends told her she had seen him after the crime" should be "Rudi's friends told her they had seen him after the crime"! It'll be interesting if the Court accepts it, since it would support the defence's theory that the murder happened before 22:30 (when Rudy says he left the cottage). His estimate on that was apparently based on the time he arrived at his friend's place, 23:30. I suppose it does make a bit more sense that if Rudy was looking for an alibi, he'd go and see people who knew him, rather than just turning up in a club and hoping to be noticed.

 

[el buscador]

I hope Frank writes about the judge for the appeals. From what he says, the judge being talked about now is better that the judge before.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2010/10/avetrana-like-perugia.html

Frank Sfarzo said...
There wasn't a judge.

Now there is maybe a judge. We'll see if he will be confirmed.

Better than the one who was rumored before, btw.

 

[Machiavelli]

I don't think a cleanup at Raffaele's place would show Amanda's blood, it would show Meredith's (as well as her DNA). If they were just tested for DNA, Amanda's DNA showing up in Raffaele's apartment is no big deal. I believe Charlie posted regarding this and none of the Luminol stains at Raffaele's were shown to contain Meredith's blood or DNA.

What do cleanup or Meredith's blood have to do with it? There were some actual blood spots in Raffaele's apartment, those were attributed to Amanda. There where also luminol spots in the bathroom, I don't know what was the original dilution, but for their location I see no reason to think there was anything else than blood, some of this also showed Amanda's DNA. The presence of blood dilution traces on a kitchen floor is not that strange, I don't know if the concentration made the DNA still detectable. Once they didn't find any useful DNA profile attributable to Meredith, there is nothing more to know about these stains. Raffaele's apartment is not exactly a crime scene, we don't need to detect Amanda's presence there, I don't have a reason to attribute any value of evidence to these stains in any sense (not in favour nor against).

 

[Justinian2]

I hope Frank writes about the judge for the appeals. From what he says, the judge being talked about now is better that the judge before.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2010/10/avetrana-like-perugia.html

Frank Sfarzo said...
There wasn't a judge.

Now there is maybe a judge. We'll see if he will be confirmed.

Better than the one who was rumored before, btw.

From http://www.officialwire.com/main.php?action=posted_news&rid=249388&catid=62

PERUGIA, ITALY



Italy has named a new judge to oversee the case of convicted killer Amanda Knox just weeks before the American's appeals trial is to begin, authorities say.

<snip>

Judge Claudio Pratillo, replacing Sergio Matteini Chiari, has in the past shown a willingness to go against the judicial grain and overturn controversial convictions, something likely to give hope to Knox's supporters, Seattlepi.com said.

Isn't the new judge Claudio Pratillo?

 

[el buscador]

From http://www.officialwire.com/main.php?action=posted_news&rid=249388&catid=62



Isn't the new judge Claudio Pratillo?

I noticed that Frank's comment was made on Nov. 1. So, maybe the judge has actually been confirmed by now? I believe that it is Claudio Pratillo. If he has been confirmed I hope he is open to getting the evidence reviewed.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

What do cleanup or Meredith's blood have to do with it? There were some actual blood spots in Raffaele's apartment, those were attributed to Amanda. There where also luminol spots in the bathroom, I don't know what was the original dilution, but for their location I see no reason to think there was anything else than blood, some of this also showed Amanda's DNA. The presence of blood dilution traces on a kitchen floor is not that strange, I don't know if the concentration made the DNA still detectable. Once they didn't find any useful DNA profile attributable to Meredith, there is nothing more to know about these stains. Raffaele's apartment is not exactly a crime scene, we don't need to detect Amanda's presence there, I don't have a reason to attribute any value of evidence to these stains in any sense (not in favour nor against).

Was it not yourself who brought up the subject of Amanda's blood being found in Raffaele's apartment? When you initially wrote a reply to a question from RoseMontague:

''...I think Luminol reactions in Raffaele's apartment are all blood. Not all of them necessarily human blood.''

You have subsequently stated a few times now that it is irrelevant. This leads me to wonder...why bring the subject up at all - if there is no 'evidence value' whatsoever, why mention it?

I hope there was no ulterior motive or sinister ploy to cast aspersions upon Amanda and Raffaele. Though I am confident there was not.

Just like Comodi had no hidden agendas when questioning Amanda about the 'midday' call that has been debated at length previously.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

What do cleanup or Meredith's blood have to do with it? There were some actual blood spots in Raffaele's apartment, those were attributed to Amanda. There where also luminol spots in the bathroom, I don't know what was the original dilution, but for their location I see no reason to think there was anything else than blood, some of this also showed Amanda's DNA. The presence of blood dilution traces on a kitchen floor is not that strange, I don't know if the concentration made the DNA still detectable. Once they didn't find any useful DNA profile attributable to Meredith, there is nothing more to know about these stains. Raffaele's apartment is not exactly a crime scene, we don't need to detect Amanda's presence there, I don't have a reason to attribute any value of evidence to these stains in any sense (not in favour nor against).

I find this interesting because Amanda only knew Raffaele for 6 days. If there could be innocent reasons for drops of her blood to be in his bathroom, then certainly there could be the same innocent reasons for drops of her blood to be in her own bathroom.

Except when they're found in her own bathroom somehow they incriminate her in a murder.

 

[christianahannah]

Was it not yourself who brought up the subject of Amanda's blood being found in Raffaele's apartment? When you initially wrote a reply to a question from RoseMontague:

''...I think Luminol reactions in Raffaele's apartment are all blood. Not all of them necessarily human blood.''

You have subsequently stated a few times now that it is irrelevant. This leads me to wonder...why bring the subject up at all - if there is no 'evidence value' whatsoever, why mention it?

I hope there was no ulterior motive or sinister ploy to cast aspersions upon Amanda and Raffaele. Though I am confident there was not.

Just like Comodi had no hidden agendas when questioning Amanda about the 'midday' call that has been debated at length previously.

Machiavelli's statements have been in answer to questions asked by several posters concerning his/her opinion about the luminol reactions in Raffaele's flat, Rose being one.

These same luminol reactions are referenced in the motivations, page 194, and Charlie Wilkes has provided a pdf of selected DNA results which also include these reactions in Raffaele's flat.

 

[el buscador]

Machiavelli's statements have been in answer to questions asked by several posters concerning his/her opinion about the luminol reactions in Raffaele's flat, Rose being one.

These same luminol reactions are referenced in the motivations, page 194, and Charlie Wilkes has provided a pdf of selected DNA results which also include these reactions in Raffaele's flat.

That's right, luminol reactions and DNA was found, but where does it say that Amanda's DNA came from her blood? That's what Machiavelli is claiming.

 

[Machiavelli]

Was it not yourself who brought up the subject of Amanda's blood being found in Raffaele's apartment? When you initially wrote a reply to a question from RoseMontague:

''...I think Luminol reactions in Raffaele's apartment are all blood. Not all of them necessarily human blood.''

You have subsequently stated a few times now that it is irrelevant. This leads me to wonder...why bring the subject up at all - if there is no 'evidence value' whatsoever, why mention it?

No it was RoseMontague who brought up the subject of the luminol substance in Raffaele's apartment, and she asked me what was the substance in my opinion. So, it was somebody else who brought up the subject, by putting a question that was explicitly directed to me. I answered on the subject choesen by somebody else, by giving my opinion about the fact that all stains in Raffaele's apartment were blood. I stated it was irrelevant. Then I argumented about blood spots after being a target of further post and questions.
Since I assume you followed the conversation, and you know what the is truth, I wonder why you want to twist facts. You perfectly know why I mentioned things: because somebody put an explicit question to me on the point, and she wanted an answer from me. For no other reason.

 

[Machiavelli]

The judge's second name is Pratillo Hellmann

Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann

 

[christianahannah]

That's right, luminol reactions and DNA was found, but where does it say that Amanda's DNA came from her blood? That's what Machiavelli is claiming.

This is from the motivations, page 194. I do not know if this is correctly translated (I have no reason to think it is not correctly translated), however, from this passage it appears two samples were taken from the elastic boxer shorts which was blood attributed to Amanda.

I cannot tell by the sentence if the samples were taken from the elastic band of the boxer shorts or if that is the description of the boxer shorts.

There is presumed blood-like substances or blood-derived substances thrown in this passage, however, I don't think it can be said with certainty this is blood.

...In the bedroom "Luminol was used on the external [201] handle of the door, two samples from the floor" and the evidence revealed the genetic profile of Sollecito plus Knox. Even though this was mixed, the results were only a partial genetic profile, having lacked some of Raffaele’s alleles.

In the bathroom, highlighting was done with Luminol and the results were negative, except for one specimen, number 95, a presumed blood-like substance, with the genetic result of Sollecito plus Knox: another sample taken from the floor showed Knox’s genetic profile. In the kitchen-entrance [area], the Luminol highlighted five samples including the DNA profile of an unknown individual. Fourteen samples were taken from a pair of Nike shoes, all negative for any blood-like substance. On the elastic boxer shorts, a blood-like substance was revealed on two samples, blood belonging to Knox. On the jack-knife, 4 samples were taken, with negative results where blood-derived substances had been looked for; on the fourth sample, which involved the handle, the genetic profile was found to be of Sollecito plus Knox.

 

[Fine]

Massei mentions that they locked the door with the key from the inside, which of course would mean you'd also need to use the key in order to open the door, though he doesn't take the logic to its next step by noting that a stranger to the house would therefore have a strong reason to take the front door keys:

* * *

IIRC Micheli also mentions a couple of times that the door was locked with a key from the inside, and speculates that Guede could have been locked in the house (he concludes he'd just have jumped out the window anyway). Raffaele's appeal does go to the logical next step, arguing that while Amanda would've had no need to take Meredith's keys (having her own), a thief would've needed to take them to exit the house, since the front door was always kept locked with a key.
* * *

At any rate, there's certainly no mention of a 'convenience key' anywhere, and you'd think the defence would've checked that out before making their argument. Given the broken latch on the front door and the people coming and going in the apartment downstairs, leaving a key near the exit would be quite a risky idea.

_____________________

Thank you katy_did for your comment. And I stand corrected, as I didn't know that Raffaele's APPEAL cited this locked front door predicament as a motive for Rudy taking Merdith's keys. Yeah, you'd expect Raffaele's atorneys to have "checked that out"--- whether there was a convenience key.

Nevertheless, I'm sure you can appreciate---as others here have--- the convenience there would be in having some-key-or-other left at the front door.

So, another option. It may have been a matter of protocol that when each girl came home she hung her key ring on the key rack next to the front door. In that way there would always be a convenience key at the front door, and no "extra" key required. (And that's why, I think, a key rack was mounted next to the front door.) After all, it seems that none of the girls---under ordinary circumstances---locked their private bedroom doors, and so would have had no use for their keys once they had entered the cottage.

In this case, on the night of the murder, and following the LONEWOLF/ BURGLAR scenario, Meredith would have hung her keys inside the front door and so a burglar would have felt trapped only if he didn't notice the keys, which, I suppose, may have happened. If Rudy saw the keys shortly after Meredith arrived he would have used them pronto, and left. Anyway, after the murder, Rudy clearly found and had a use for Meredith's keys, and in leaving would have taken them with him to conceal evidence.

So both Rudy and the lovebirds would have had their respective motives to take Meredith's keys. The lovebirds needed the bedroom key, Rudy needed the front door key. But, within the LONEWOLF/ BURGLAR scenario...after murdering Meredith and then finding the keys at the front door, it still seems somewhat odd that Rudy would return to Meredith's bedroom to lock her bedroom door.

///

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

What do cleanup or Meredith's blood have to do with it? There were some actual blood spots in Raffaele's apartment, those were attributed to Amanda. There where also luminol spots in the bathroom, I don't know what was the original dilution, but for their location I see no reason to think there was anything else than blood, some of this also showed Amanda's DNA. The presence of blood dilution traces on a kitchen floor is not that strange, I don't know if the concentration made the DNA still detectable. Once they didn't find any useful DNA profile attributable to Meredith, there is nothing more to know about these stains. Raffaele's apartment is not exactly a crime scene, we don't need to detect Amanda's presence there, I don't have a reason to attribute any value of evidence to these stains in any sense (not in favour nor against).

Are you saying police found bloodstains in Raffaele's apartment that were visible without the aid of a forensic chemical, i.e., in addition to the luminol reactions? That is interesting news. Do you happen to know if these stains were subjected to a DNA test and if so, what the sample numbers are?

 

[Onofarar]

The judge's second name is Pratillo Hellmann

Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann

IIRC he replaces Ser.gio Matteini. Was Sergio Matteini ever discussed in this thread? I have always wondered if Claudia Matteini and Sergio Matteini are related. Given some of her rulings I would not be confident of the appeal succeeding should it prove they are related. BUT Pratillo Hellman is another matter entirely. He has a history of overturning a murder case on appeal - in that case after seven years incarceration of the man found guilty in the trial of the first instance.

 

[Machiavelli]

Are you saying police found bloodstains in Raffaele's apartment that were visible without the aid of a forensic chemical, i.e., in addition to the luminol reactions? That is interesting news. Do you happen to know if these stains were subjected to a DNA test and if so, what the sample numbers are?

Well, it's not very interesting, this can be read by everybody also in the (Italian) Massei report:

Nella stanza da bagno era stata fatta l'evidenziazione col luminol ed i risultati erano stati negativi tranne una traccia, la 95: presunta sostanza ematica con il risultato genetico: Sollecito più Knox; un'altra campionatura effettuata sul pavimento aveva dato come risultato il profilo di Knox.

...

Sui boxer elasticizzati era risultata sostanza ematica su due
campionature, sangue appartenente alla Knox; sul coltello a serramanico erano state effettuate 4 campionature risultate negative dove era stata cercata sostanza ematica; sulla quarta campionatura che aveva riguardato il manico era stato trovato il profilo genetico di Sollecito più Knox.

(p. 201)

"presunta sostnza ematica" is something visible without chemical enhancements. Blood-like is a translation, but exactly this means "a substance that is presumed to be blood", something found in a spot of the bathroom that was already visible before the luminol enhanchement. "Sostanza ematica" is blood with no doubt.
(note by the way: on Raffaele's flick knife there is also Knos DNA).

 

[Machiavelli]

IIRC he replaces Ser.gio Matteini. Was Sergio Matteini ever discussed in this thread? I have always wondered if Claudia Matteini and Sergio Matteini are related. Given some of her rulings I would not be confident of the appeal succeeding should it prove they are related. BUT Pratillo Hellman is another matter entirely. He has a history of overturning a murder case on appeal - in that case after seven years incarceration of the man found guilty in the trial of the first instance.

Sergio Matteini Chiari - not just Matteini.
Matteini Chiari and Pratillo Hellmann have worked together in the latest years at the head of the Pretura del Lavoro. Pratillo Hellman was Matteini Chiari's co-author in several sentences in their office dealing with labour rights. I can't presume any difference between them by their names.

The man you are talking about had been found guilty definitively in his third appeal. The court headed by Pratillo Hellmann overturned the verdict about his guilt and found him innocent. However they did not overturn the verdict for the man's wife, the second person who was convicted for the same murder.

 

[Justinian2]

Is there any friend or relative of the involved families posting here?

For that matter, is there any friend or relative of Massei posting here?

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Is there any friend or relative of the involved families posting here?

For that matter, is there any friend or relative of Massei posting here?

I doubt that anyone would speak up even it s/he were related to any of the above.